Hangin'-A-Round -- Official Game Discussion

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Billfred

The spinning platform is what makes it fun! Robots are going to have to be nimble or lucky in order to hang, because the odds are that you won't be coming at the bar directly head-on. I predict a class of robots, whom I officially dub the Hellraiser, whose sole goal is to defend the platform against opposing hangers. ...

I predict we will soon need a separate thread dedicated to Hellraiser 'bots, similar to the KoH 'bot thread from the 2003 FRC game.

[Ravi_B]

Oh yeh, definatly a fun field. There will be a lot of innovative designs in this one. Of course I've already designed a bot what with capabilites to score and lift hurrah.
But the new team will be the ones doing the designing...I'm taking a bit of a coaching role for the new TFC team.

[Chuck Glick]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'd be allowed to (and I am helping them analyze the game), but I'm voluntarily trying to take a more external role (even then last year, in which I took a step back from the year before).

ok, well I'm just allowed to help them figure out how to make something work after they come up with the inital design. So once they know what they want the robot to do, I help them figure out the how.

[gblake]

Folks - FYI - I went to Walmart (the supplier named in the FVC Hangin'-A-Round Bill of Materials) to get some softballs. Guess what - My local stores aren't stocking softballs right now - Not a one in the store. Softball and baseball equipment is stocked only seasonally, and this is not softball season. Grrrrr :-(

I wonder how many Walmarts in similar or farther North latitudes/locations across North America have similar policies. The BoM might benefit from a wee edit....

So I went to Modell's - Expensive and uninspiring selection.

So I went to Dick's - Found a bucket of twenty-four 11" "Official" white softballs for $50 (That's about $2/ball). They tried to charge me $60, but the tag on the bucket's handle said $50. I wanted yellow balls, but all of the yellow ones were 12" balls.

Blake

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

Folks - FYI - I went to Walmart (the supplier named in the FVC Hangin'-A-Round Bill of Materials) to get some softballs. Guess what - My local stores aren't stocking softballs right now - Not a one in the store. Softball and baseball equipment is stocked only seasonally, and this is not softball season. Grrrrr :-(

I wonder how many Walmarts in similar or farther North latitudes/locations across North America have similar policies. The BoM might benefit from a wee edit....
Blake

Same problem up here in Connecticut. Had to go to Dick's too. I found individual yellow 11" 'fast pitch' Wilson balls at $4.50 each. The Worth 'slow pitch' balls were white and $5.50.

Anyone know if there's a weight difference between fast pitch and slow pitch softballs????

[gblake]

Originally Posted by skimoose

Same problem up here in Connecticut. Had to go to Dick's too. I found individual yellow 11" 'fast pitch' Wilson balls at $4.50 each. The Worth 'slow pitch' balls were white and $5.50.

Anyone know if there's a weight difference between fast pitch and slow pitch softballs????

I did some Googling and found this site - http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/WilliamPoon.shtml - It cites a couple of regulations for the mass of an 11" ball. Of course one of them is from a manual that is only distributed in printed form and the URL for the other is a dead link.

The citations list two mass ranges for 11" balls: 165-175 grams and 167-174 grams. Both pertinent citations say the 11" ball circumference should be 11" +/- 1/8"

More to your point - I did not find a specified difference between balls used in slow, fast or modified pitch games. However, that could be because I didn't find any much of anything useful on the subject. Who out there is better at picking search terms than I?

There seem to a zillion variations in ball construction (including the zillion that Worth offers); and the specs commonly used to separate balls seem to be Circumference, Coefficient of Restitution (COR), Lbs of force required to achieve a specific deformation, Cover material used, Stitching used, and Core material.

Apparently ball mass is not something that players use to separate one ball type from another.

Bottom line(s):

• Get an 11" ball, not a 12" or larger.

• If Worth makes only one ball that matches the vague spec in the FVC BoM, it isn't obvious on the Worth web site.

• Cross your fingers and don't spend too much money just yet...(I haven't opened my $50 bucket of balls yet.)

• I think the Hangin' Around BoM needs a bit of improvement (Such as a more precise ball spec or an explicit confirmation that the vagueness is intentional).

Blake

[amos229]

wow. what a great game. i love it. its the last 3 years of FRC with some extra twists. huge thumbs up to the FVC GDC

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

The citations list two mass ranges for 11" balls: 165-175 grams and 167-174 grams. Both pertinent citations say the 11" ball circumference should be 11" +/- 1/8"

Bottom line(s):

• Get an 11" ball, not a 12" or larger.

• If Worth makes only one ball that matches the vague spec in the FVC BoM, it isn't obvious on the Worth web site.

• Cross your fingers and don't spend too much money just yet...(I haven't opened my $50 bucket of balls yet.)

• I think the Hangin' Around BoM needs a bit of improvement (Such as a more precise ball spec or an explicit confirmation that the vagueness is intentional).

Blake

Thanks Blake,

My main concerns were mass, there weren't any weights listed on the packaging, and the composition differences between slow and fast pitch balls. I'm sure it's an issue of energy transfer. Slow pitch balls are probably slightly "harder" so they preform similarly to fast pitch balls which are being thrown with higher energy. Slow pitch balls will transfer energy a little better than fast pitch balls. In this game it shouldn't matter, other than if there had been a weight difference.

The other factor that might be important to some teams would be color. The manual references the high visibility yellow balls, not white. If a team wants to use a light sensor to key in on the balls, there would be a difference in signal between white and yellow balls, and it would also allow contrast between the white field lines and the balls.

I'll also agree that this year's game is great!!! Thanks GDC!!

I'm always a fan of large size scoring pieces for vex. That atlas ball is even bigger than I'd expect. Very cool.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by skimoose

Thanks Blake,
The other factor that might be important to some teams would be color.

I would add cover material and stitching to the the list of variables that can have a noticeable effect on robot performance/design.

Unless standardized, the ball covers encountered in competitions can have different friction and "give" when some ball pick-up or handling mechanisms try to rub, squeeze or bite into them.

Similarly, I think the different stitching approaches available can have a non-trivial effect on ball pick-up and handling.

Blake

[coriolis]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

I would add cover material and stitching to the the list of variables that can have a noticeable effect on robot performance/design.

Unless standardized, the ball covers encountered in competitions can have different friction and "give" when some ball pick-up or handling mechanisms try to rub, squeeze or bite into them.

Similarly, I think the different stitching approaches available can have a non-trivial effect on ball pick-up and handling.

Blake

I couldn't agree more.
My daughter is a softball pitcher and they need to know what brand ball they will use before the season. Not only is there a huge difference in the height of the stitching, the actual texture of the ball can be vastly different.

I recall last year, certain used racquetballs would not be picked up by our bot due to their smoothed shell.

Softball brand will need to be specified before experimenting with the bot.

Mark
FVC160

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by coriolis

Softball brand will need to be specified before experimenting with the bot.

You might not want to count on that. Many previous FIRST game pieces have included some minor variation in features; this variation has been considered part of the challenge, not grounds for replacing the gamepiece. For example, if the gamepiece specification in the manual only calls out circumference, then the circumference is the only feature you can count on when designing your robot.

[Rich Kressly]

those looking for ball information... direct from FIRST procurement folks:

the "official tournament" softballs are optic yellow, cork core, 11", 0.44 COR, 375 lb compression from Worth, part # YWCS11. It is labeled as a "Retail recreational softball"

The field BOM will be updated accordingly.

However, nearly any 11" circumference softball will do for testing and practice. Also, please remember that there may be slight variances in softballs, even from ball to ball (as well as other field components), and teams need to design to accommodate this.

In the future, any FVC team desiring an official answers needs to use the FVC Q&A as directed in the game manual. It's located here:
http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=35

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

In the future, any FVC team desiring an official answers needs to use the FVC Q&A as directed in the game manual. It's located here:
http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=35

I just tried that link, and I didn't have permissions to see the forum (while logged in as the FRC Q&A username). Is this how things are supposed to be?

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Billfred

I just tried that link, and I didn't have permissions to see the forum (while logged in as the FRC Q&A username)...

I had the same problem. I had to send an email to the webmaster a few days ago and the problem has now been cleared up.

Mike

[SamC]

I just saw something that JVN posted on the VexForum about the '06-'07 FVC Game. I thought it was pretty cool so here it is,

Originally Posted by JVN

The current FVC game was not based off any specific previous FRC game. There are similar elements and aspects, but this is designed to be a unique game.

Some have criticized the scoring as being a copy of last years. This is just silly. The game was designed, then scoring weights were assigned based on the difficulty of the task, in order to create as balanced a game as possible. This ended up to be a 3:1 ratio between high goals and low goals. With the Atlas ball being worth a double point value.

Others have said this game doesn't have enough creativity. Are you crazy?! I guess a giant ball that is twice the size of the robots, and a spinning platform aren't original enough?

I'm a huge fan of balanced, simple games with simple elements of scoring. I hate a game with a gimmicky innovation simply for the sake of innovating.

Yep, I'm sure the FVC game could have taken place in a pool, with inflatable cubes as game objects. (It's definitely never been done before.) Would it have added anything to the FIRST experience? Probably not.

$.02
JV

I just thought that summed it all up, and pretty much put my thoughts into words...lol. I think this will be a great game!