Christian FIRST Group

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Sup3rman

Well sticking to the first post on page one, this is 100% OPTIONAL.
Just to make things a little clearer for everyone who reads this. According to Marriam Webster the word Optional is actually not in the dictionary, but it refers to option. Option (according to MW) simply means:
"an act of choosing" or "something that may be chosen".
Once again I would like to say that i'm pretty sure this is just ment to be an optional thing for people who want to do it.

In the first post, Dylan says that he is sorry if he has offended anyone. Well, I feel offended. And being that I would also be offended if these prayer groups took place, I felt it was appropriate to post about why I am against this group.

It doesn't matter if it is optional. I know for a fact that if this group were to exist, we would all "have" to be quiet to show "respect." Well, maybe I don't like being inconvenienced at a FIRST competition by something that has nothing to do with FIRST.

[Dylan Gramlich]

ok thats enough for that topic. Now back to the original topic mentioned in post #1 please. The more we push and shove the less we will resolve. so please return to the original post everyone.
Thanx and -=God Bless=-

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Dylan Gramlich

ok thats enough for that topic. Now back to the original topic mentioned in post #1 please. The more we push and shove the less we will resolve. so please return to the original post everyone.
Thanx and -=God Bless=-

It think many of us, including myself, have stated that we are fully against the formation of a Christian FIRST group. If our minds are made up, what is there to resolve.

Judging by the strong feelings expressed in this thread, I believe that this group would cause more conflict than good. I understand that this may be what you believe in, but some, like me, find it offensive.

You have, I assume, read all the posts in this thread, and I would find it to be not very GP to form a group that would obviously make some people angry/annoyed.

[GRaduns340]

I've read the posts, and we will consider the location of the meeting, but the point of this thread was to get suggestions, and the actual suggestions seem to be what's in short supply. I'm not going to argue any of the points that have been made because I understand the perspective, but they haven't provided much of a basis for us to make decisions about how to go about doing this.

[MikeJ675]

On my former team(I'm now thousands of miles away in college) we had a few rules for the shop, which translated to the competitions as well.

The two semi to completely applicable to the topic at hand are-

1. No discussion of politics in the shop.
2. No discussion of religion in the shop.

I've been of the opinion that religious beliefs are a private matter, and as such, avoid turning it into a topic of conversation unless absolutely necessary.

As long as someone isn't shoving their beliefs into my face, I won't shove back. Prayer by the field is pushing on that boundry.

Like it or not, having a prayer session in the focal point of the entire event tends to force those that are awake to be involved in some way.

If you wish to get together and pray, no matter the religious figure, please do it somewhere that isn't the center of the entire event.

What point does the prayer at fieldside serve that one in another location cannot?

There's a bit more I'd like to say, but it would be verging on throwing some gun powder towards a fire, so I'll end here.

[Dylan Gramlich]

well i thank you for you input first of all. But about what you said "Prayer by the field is pushing on that boundry" the first post adressed that by saying off to the side. whether that means back in a corner of the pits or somewhere in the stands, but we will not be doing it in the middle of the field. Again thanx for the input and i hope i have addressed your concern to some extent.

-=God Bless=-

[Cuog]

For those that want advice on how to do this here is what I have to say: Don't.

As you can see from this thread ALOT of people are offended or at least would feel uncomfortable with such a group acting inside a FIRST event.

Also even if a religious group is optional if you practice in an open area where everone can see you can make people feel uncomfortable if they do not show the same views. Also asking everyone, how would you feel if another religion lets say Muslim, started getting together and praying ont he side of the field? I'm sure you would be a little uncomfortable about it.

Please in the name of Gracious Professionalism and FIRST don't start a group when you know full well that it will make alot of people feel unhappy in various ways.

[MikeJ675]

Originally Posted by Dylan Gramlich

well i thank you for you input first of all. But about what you said "Prayer by the field is pushing on that boundry" the first post adressed that by saying off to the side. whether that means back in a corner of the pits or somewhere in the stands, but we will not be doing it in the middle of the field. Again thanx for the input and i hope i have addressed your concern to some extent.

-=God Bless=-

that covers part of the point, but not all of it.

Doing this anywhere that people not interested in being involved will have to be is possibly offensive and likely disrespectful to those not involved.

What happens to the members of team **** who are busy making repairs or minor changes to their bot in the pit suddenly have a prayer group for a neighbor. At a minimum, it'd be quite distracting. If they don't want to hear it, what should they do? Stop working on the bot and leave?

somewhere in the bleachers could work, assuming the stands aren't packed to the point where people don't have much choice in where to sit.

In short, please don't do it in places where people that aren't interested in hearing your message have to listen to it.

[Jaine Perotti]

There has been alot of talk in the last few posts about "shoving beliefs in people's faces". While Dylan and others have promised that what they intend to do would not be considered "shoving beliefs in people's faces", consider this:

The prospect of outright "shoving" isn't the only thing which is making people feel uncomfortable. Even if the group were not to actively ask people to join or become Christian, the presence of that group would be felt anyways (if there were prayers being held at socials, or on the field sidelines), and those who do not want to participate would still feel alienated.

If I walk into a FIRST competition, and I see a large group of people holding a prayer service (Based on the fact that 77% of the country is Christian, I would assume a similar ratio would be seen among FIRST participants), I am going to feel as if being Christian were an unspoken expectation of participating in the competition. Sure, I am not officially required to, and no one is making me, but I will be very aware of the fact that I am not a participant in that particular activity. As I mentioned before, all of a sudden, there will be less common ground between me and those other FIRST participants. Highlighting these differences would make me feel very uncomfortable and out of place, and many others would feel uncomfortable as well.

Honestly, based on what I think and the views which have been expressed here, I don't think a Christian group which met at socials, by the field before matches, or anywhere else where it would create a large presence at the venue - would serve to improve the FIRST community. People would feel uncomfortable, and would uncover and highlight a very divisive issue. I know that no harm is meant by the existence of such a group, and I know that prayer is not harmful, but the side effects of this group (if it were a palpable presence at competitions) could be.

My recommendation is that you create a group which perhaps arranges to meet elsewhere (for example, you could arrange a trip to a theme park, or out to dinner) - after the competition, or regionally (for example, Chicago or Indianapolis area teams). Or, maybe you could hold online chats, where you could get to know each other and have conversations about God and your faith. I could see both of those things as being very positive and fun, and would achieve your stated objectives (finding new friends who have a common interest AND religion).

I don't think I or anyone else here is asking you to "drop your beliefs at the door" when you walk into a competition. When we come to a FIRST event, we come in as the people who we are, and we abide by all of the beliefs which compose our moral character - no matter where they come from (our religion, our upbringing, our experientially-derived moral principles). You can pray if you want to - I am sure many people already do. There is no reason why a silent, personal prayer can't be as effective as a vocal group prayer, and I don't take any offense to people praying silently to the God(s) of their choice while at a FIRST competition.

-- Jaine

[sciencenerd]

Originally Posted by MikeJ675

In short, please don't do it in places where people that aren't interested in hearing your message have to listen to it.

People say things in public places all the time that may make some other people uncumfortable (profanity, for instance). However, those people still have a right to do that, unless the venue has a specific rule against it. The same rights should be given to a prayer group, of any faith - as long as they aren't physically disrupting another person by forcing them to leave the area while they pray, and aren't shouting it so loud it prevents others from working, they should be allowed to do it.


Also, if a gender-based group like the RCU is allowed to exist, then a Christian group should definitely be permitted. It isn't nearly as exclusionary as the RCU - anyone who wants to can come, not just girls. Several have said they would feel excluded if a Christian group were to be formed - if you're a guy, you literally are excluded from the RCU, and there's nothing you can do about it (short of a sex change ). The fact that Christians may make up a larger group of FIRSTers than girls shouldn't change anything - majorities and minorities alike should be given equal rights in a democracy.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by sciencenerd

Also, if a gender-based group like the RCU is allowed to exist, then a Christian group should definitely be permitted. It isn't nearly as exclusionary as the RCU - anyone who wants to can come, not just girls.

To be fair, this isn't true.

[Steve W]

It seemsthat people want to discuss other than the original topic. I have closed the thread again and deleted some of the posts. The posts were not necesarally bad but they led the thread off topic. I will reopen again Sunday sometime

[Steve W]

I am re opening the thread. After much consideration I have edited the first post to be discussed as follows:

Originally Posted by Dylan Gramlich

1)praying before regionals ( Anyone who wants to participate can)

2)possibly organizing the Christians in FIRST into some type of group or even just gathering(suggestions on this would be awesome)

Please respond to only the above questions and no more discussions on wording or interpretations of what has been said previous. The intent of the poster (my interpretation after PMs) is that they were looking for suggestions on how to meet, where to meet and if it was even possible. There have been other meetings discussed here on CD and they were allowed. The issue is that the original poster was not quite as savvy on how to post without striking at peoples nerves. Sometimes we all say something without understanding the full impact of what we say (YES even me). It is a learning curve that we all must go through. Please be patient and tolerant of all posters here on CD and help them without attacking.

Legal jargon:

This is a free message brought to you by one of the moderators of Chief Delphi. The comments made here are the sole responsibility of the poster and may not represent those of Chief Delphi, its sponsors or others in authority.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I am re opening the thread. After much consideration I have edited the first post to be discussed as follows:



Please respond to only the above questions and no more discussions on wording or interpretations of what has been said previous. The intent of the poster (my interpretation after PMs) is that they were looking for suggestions on how to meet, where to meet and if it was even possible. There have been other meetings discussed here on CD and they were allowed. The issue is that the original poster was not quite as savvy on how to post without striking at peoples nerves. Sometimes we all say something without understanding the full impact of what we say (YES even me). It is a learning curve that we all must go through. Please be patient and tolerant of all posters here on CD and help them without attacking.

Legal jargon:

This is a free message brought to you by one of the moderators of Chief Delphi. The comments made here are the sole responsibility of the poster and may not represent those of Chief Delphi, its sponsors or others in authority.

What more is there to be said that hasn't already been said?
This thread should just stay closed or else it'll just end up closed by the end of the day anyways.

[Mike Martus]

Several topics seem to stir up deep feelings. This is both good and sometimes bad depending on the time -setting and circumstances. It is very clear that this topic is causing some posters to react as to not discuss the original starting post but to get heated discussions going beyond the intent of the original poster.

I would request that cool heads prevail and think about everyones right to express what they believe in, but also consider what effect the expression may have on others.

The greatness of FIRST is that the Community is so very diverse and we all get to grow in our understanding of others, their beliefs, their culture and who we are.

The moderators are doing a great job at preserving "the peace" so to speak. Please assist them in continuing to express your views but be mindful of how you are doing it. The power of FIRST is within each one of us to share and grow the mission. Let's keep focus on the mission and channel our energy to benefit the Community of FIRST.

This thread will remain closed for a period of time. What is good for FIRST and the CD Community is formost in the decision making process.

Great Job moderators!