2007 Robot Controller

[Andrew Blair]

I agree that integrating the radio can be done- there's buttloads of space in that box- but I don't think it will be done. The modems we use are not strictly for FIRSTs use, and IFI would either need a special order for a card type mount, or integration onto a reletively cramped board- something that requires quite a bit of work for, as Billfred said, a low volume product. But it could be done.

In my opinion, the only changes to the brain will be a firmware update. They just replaced the PIC (Which is software- the chips are the same size- pin count etc. I believe), they have a nice supplementary income from broken serial connectors .

But, I would like to see the USB programming support. There isn't a computer that can be used for programming that doesn't have USB support- the only problem is the addition of even more control hardware. PIC's, pull-ups, etc.

[Stuart]

Im willing to bet that the radio stuff will happen(tazlikesrobots has a nack for these things), also willing to bet that USB support will finally be added. . also going out on a limb and saying that the camera will be different/better(they show out of stock).

but hey what do I know.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by Tazlikesrobots

I heard that the new controller will have the capability of using USB joysticks, and the radio receiver may be internal.

The problem with USB joysticks is that, unless there is a clever way around it, the RC needs to be a USB host to communicate- and even worse, may have to store several drivers just to support a reasonable number of joysticks. Which is a far different hardware story than a usb slave, as implementing a USB programming port would mean. It's a nice idea, but it poses a very steep set of obstacles to climb.


I would go out on a limb and say that FIRST would likely have us hack a USB joystick to gameport before they got IFI to develop the support. Additionally, if you wanted to support easy potentiometer/switch interfaces that teams construct on their own, you'd need either some gameport "ports", or a seperate analog-USB dongle to mediate.

[ChuckDickerson]

This entire thread somehow seems very familiar. As far as the whole USB joystick interface question on the OI I believe the solution has been posted.

[Gdeaver]

IFI will probably never incorporate a radio into the RC because of FCC issues. They may incorporate a FCC precertified module with and external antenna. This would be a significant cost savings. I think ZIGBEE would be a good fit however the technology needs a little maturing. Actually the are some Zigbee modules that could replace the operator interface.

[bear24rw]

I don't really think that the radios will change... i'm not sure if i would like the radio to beinside the RC.. it seems like it wouldnt get reception, but if it does and it works consistantly then i would defiently prefer that. As far as USB programming Parallax has done it and I have a feeling that IFI is going to follow suit..

http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28850

Hopefully IFI will supprise us this year

[Astronouth7303]

It wouldn't surprise me if a new camera was included; I've heard online that CMU developed a new all-in-one package for the camera.

I would hate for the program port to be removed (remember, that's also how you connect other peripherals - eg, the 2005 power distribution board). I would much rather see them start packaging USB-Serial adaptors. Also, moving to USB means developing drivers for it. (Windows for IFI, Linux for us.)

What may be helpful to alleviate this problem is if there was a SoIP (Serial over IP) system available for FIRST teams. Meaning that a virtual serial port is available to software that is forwarded to a "serial server" that is actually connected. Developing the server software isn't bad, it's the client driver in Windows that presents problems.

[Conor Ryan]

The 2007 controller(s) might already be out there, I had a thought today that maybe radical but it can be substantiated.

What if they are having teams build multiple minitaure robots this year? See, IFI only has the mini-controller for sale right now, and they are a good bit cheaper than the old controllers. So what if they give every team 3 controllers? And every time a light on the field changes like they demoed in Atlanta, a different robot needs to be operated? Instead of having one complex robot, we get three simple robots. Two heads are better than one, and three just might be fun.

It's just a thought.

[Jon Jack]

I'm not so sure going from serial to usb for the controller ports is all that great.

What if a team wanted to develop a custom controller? This year is a perfect example, many teams made custom controllers to control their shooters. If IFI did change the controller port to usb everyone could just about kiss the days of custom controllers good bye because teams would pretty much be limited to a list of controllers the OI supported. IMHO that takes some of the inventiveness out of FIRST.

I do remember there being a thread similar to this before last year's kick-off and people were saying much of the same things. When kick-off came around the only significant upgrade was the memory boost.

[chris31]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

The 2007 controller(s) might already be out there, I had a thought today that maybe radical but it can be substantiated.

What if they are having teams build multiple minitaure robots this year? See, IFI only has the mini-controller for sale right now, and they are a good bit cheaper than the old controllers. So what if they give every team 3 controllers? And every time a light on the field changes like they demoed in Atlanta, a different robot needs to be operated? Instead of having one complex robot, we get three simple robots. Two heads are better than one, and three just might be fun.

It's just a thought.

I have always wanted to have about 3 small bots and have them work together. Being able to communicate with each other. Something like this would turn out pretty cool I think.

[deshirider430]

usb would be sweet

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

IFI will probably never incorporate a radio into the RC because of FCC issues. They may incorporate a FCC precertified module with and external antenna. This would be a significant cost savings. I think ZIGBEE would be a good fit however the technology needs a little maturing. Actually the are some Zigbee modules that could replace the operator interface.

Not just FCC - but import/export regulatory reasons for other countries as well (different frequency bands, etc).

In addition, any time they made a major change to the RC, it would need new FCC testing.

I think it is very unlikely that the radios would be integrated - not much to gain from doing it for quite a large development cost.

[bear24rw]

Originally Posted by jjack

I'm not so sure going from serial to usb for the controller ports is all that great.

What if a team wanted to develop a custom controller? This year is a perfect example, many teams made custom controllers to control their shooters. If IFI did change the controller port to usb everyone could just about kiss the days of custom controllers good bye because teams would pretty much be limited to a list of controllers the OI supported. IMHO that takes some of the inventiveness out of FIRST.

I do remember there being a thread similar to this before last year's kick-off and people were saying much of the same things. When kick-off came around the only significant upgrade was the memory boost.

I agree with you that the game ports need to stay on the OI, they are easy to use and custom controllers are easy.. I am reffering to the SERIAL port used for programming the robot. I think they should change that to USB.. not the Game Ports on the OI

[efoote868]

actually, it'd be interesting to see a firewire interface for programming. as for the joysticks, i don't think they would go usb, simply because they'd be switching from a bunch of pins to 4 or 6 (well, 4 really)

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by efoote868

actually, it'd be interesting to see a firewire interface for programming. as for the joysticks, i don't think they would go usb, simply because they'd be switching from a bunch of pins to 4 or 6 (well, 4 really)

Huh? USB is serial data and has much more bandwidth than the analog and digital joystick ports. There's only 2 data lines there - and you aren't going to be able to use them as GPIO without some custom circuitry.

I wouldn't mind seeing USB for Joysticks with some GPIO (yes IO, to allow some feedback as well as input) and analog inputs for custom controls.

As far as programming via IEEE1394 - that wouldn't make much sense either as
a) you don't need nearly that much bandwidth
b) interfacing IEEE1394 to a PIC is much more complicated than USB (off-the-shelf USB to serial converter chips)
c) IEEE1394 isn't nearly as standard on PC's as USB

Without switching PIC chips, however, they would simply be adding a USB to Serial adapter on the RC - which is pretty much pointless except they have control over it for troubleshooting reasons. They could accomplish the same thing by keeping the serial port, allowing the flexability of using the serial port for other applications (IE. breaker panel, custom circuits), and shipping a USB to serial adapter to every team that they have tested and know works well with the RC.