Go to Post If 100 people from ChiefDelphi all wrote one full article on something that they are an 'expert' in, FIRSTwiki would be even better. - artdutra04 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Technical Discussion
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 13:10
Holtzman's Avatar
Holtzman Holtzman is offline
Sometimes...
AKA: Tyler Holtzman
FRC #2056 (OP Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: St. Catharines
Posts: 179
Holtzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Holtzman
IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Back in August Team 1114 was asked to construct a 6 wheel chassis to test out the latest version of the IFI traction wheels. Our testing featured six 4” x 2” Traction wheels with 3/8” id ball bearings. Our testing included many repetitions of heavy driving, impacts, quick starts and stops, and jumping the robot off a ramp.

Having not previously used the IFI traction wheels, I did some research into the problems that teams encountered with the first version of the wheels. Here were the major concerns:

- “The treads come off too easily”
The new wheels come with large headed 1/8” aluminum pop rivets as opposed to the original standard headed rivets to help ensure the tread stays attached. We had no problems with treads detaching over the course of our testing.

- “The rim of the wheel bends inwards, causing a structural failure”
The new wheels feature interlocking tabs between the rim portion of the wheel, and the side plates. These interlocking tabs are to alleviate the problems some teams encountered resulting from the rim portion bending in following a sharp blow to the perimeter of the wheel. Throughout our testing, we experienced no bending in this fashion despite repeated attempts to produce it.

- “The fasteners came loose”
Last year, some teams complained about the flathead Phillips fasteners repeatedly coming loose between the side plate, and the rim portion of the wheel. The wheels now feature stainless steel button head screws with an Allen drive. The PEM (rivet nut) fasteners in the rim portion were also swapped out in favor of ones with nylock inserts. Throughout our testing, we experienced no loosening of these bolts. Teams must, of course, ensure that these bolts are tight on assembly.

Another nice new feature is the new bearing retainers, which are a welcome improvement over old bulky ones.


Our only real grievance about these wheels was on assembly. As mentioned previously, the wheels feature interlocking tabs to help prevent the rim portion from bending in. These interlocking tabs over-constrain the rim portion to the side plate making the bolt holes difficult to line up at times. This is due to the bend tolerance on the rim portion of the wheel. On assembly, we drilled these holes out to a loose clearance on the bolt. I am told by a representative from IFI, that this revision will be made to the production models.

All in all, we were very impressed with these wheels. We had no problems at all during the testing phase with these wheels. After going through our rigorous testing process, Team 1114 is fully confident that wheels can withstand the rigors of a full FIRST season. If the game calls for a wheeled robot, there is little doubt in our mind that these would be the wheels of our choice. The strength to weight ratio is exception, and the cost is not prohibitive. In short, these new wheels are a great improvement to an already top of the line product.

These v2 wheels worked out great for us, but I’ve also, just this morning, learned that there is a v3 design in the works. I’m confident that regardless of the further developments IFI takes, the new wheels released in 2007 will fully address the problems voiced last year. Remember, design is an iterative process.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Base004.jpg
Views:	428
Size:	60.2 KB
ID:	4699  Click image for larger version

Name:	Picture001.JPG
Views:	408
Size:	84.4 KB
ID:	4700  Click image for larger version

Name:	Rails011.jpg
Views:	359
Size:	98.0 KB
ID:	4701  Click image for larger version

Name:	Rails014.jpg
Views:	336
Size:	98.0 KB
ID:	4702  Click image for larger version

Name:	Rails034.jpg
Views:	427
Size:	96.8 KB
ID:	4703  

__________________
"making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity." - Charles Mingus
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 13:37
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,701
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Holtz,

A problem our team encountered was the PEM nuts actually completely separating from the rim parts. This was a huge problem with the screws also coming loose or if you wanted to change a tread. I suppose if the screws never come loose, it's not as likely to be a problem, but I'm curious if it's still happening. You could pretty easily tell by taking a wheel or two apart and seeing if any of the PEMs fall off.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 13:57
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
Registered User
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,187
Tom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Good review. We might have to check this new version out.

Any way I can get the CAD for that sprocket? It looks very nice.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 14:09
Billfred's Avatar
Billfred Billfred is offline
...and you can't! teach! that!
FRC #5402 (Iron Kings); no team (AndyMark)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: The Land of the Kokomese, IN
Posts: 8,547
Billfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond repute
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Nice-looking wheels (and chassis).

Are the sprockets created by you, or is IFI introducing new/different sprockets?
__________________
William "Billfred" Leverette - Gamecock/Jessica Boucher victim/Marketing & Sales Specialist at AndyMark

2004-2006: FRC 1293 (D5 Robotics) - Student, Mentor, Coach
2007-2009: FRC 1618 (Capital Robotics) - Mentor, Coach
2009-2013: FRC 2815 (Los Pollos Locos) - Mentor, Coach - Palmetto '09, Peachtree '11, Palmetto '11, Palmetto '12
2010: FRC 1398 (Keenan Robo-Raiders) - Mentor - Palmetto '10
2014-2016: FRC 4901 (Garnet Squadron) - Co-Founder and Head Bot Coach - Orlando '14, SCRIW '16
2017-: FRC 5402 (Iron Kings) - Mentor

94 events (more than will fit in a ChiefDelphi signature), 14 seasons, over 61,000 miles, and still on a mission from Bob.

Rule #1: Do not die. Rule #2: Be respectful. Rule #3: Be safe. Rule #4: Follow the handbook.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 14:33
Richard Wallace's Avatar
Richard Wallace Richard Wallace is offline
I live for the details.
FRC #3620 (Average Joes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Posts: 3,660
Richard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond repute
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Since the teeth don't appear to be side chamfered, I am guessing that 1114 or one of their sponsors custom cut those, probably on a water jet or plasma cutter. (I have been experimenting with custom cutting steel sprockets on a laser table, to obtain precise shaft fit features such as the double-d found on the Globe shaft.)

Back on topic: this is a great drive train study and very useful info for any of us who are considering the new IFI wheels.

Thanks and props to 1114!
__________________
Richard Wallace

Mentor since 2011 for FRC 3620 Average Joes (St. Joseph, Michigan)
Mentor 2002-10 for FRC 931 Perpetual Chaos (St. Louis, Missouri)
since 2003

I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.
(Cosmic Religion : With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931) by Albert Einstein, p. 97)
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 14:38
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
TSIMFD
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,634
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Very interesting. We suffered a plethora of problems with the v1 IFI wheels, but according to 1114's data, most of them seem to be mitigated, if not resolved entirely. We may conduct a trial of our own on the v2 wheels, but up until this point, I don't even think we were seriously considering using them at all. Thanks 1114 for the data!

And on another note, I'm also quite interested in the sprokets, but even more so on that transmission...
__________________
Being correct doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself.

Last edited by Lil' Lavery : 01-11-2006 at 15:53.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 15:38
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,812
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Since the teeth don't appear to be side chamfered, I am guessing that 1114 or one of their sponsors custom cut those, probably on a water jet or plasma cutter. (I have been experimenting with custom cutting steel sprockets on a laser table, to obtain precise shaft fit features such as the double-d found on the Globe shaft.)

Back on topic: this is a great drive train study and very useful info for any of us who are considering the new IFI wheels.

Thanks and props to 1114!
There was a thread a few months ago about aluminum sprockets, in which Tyler described how 1114 cut their sprockets on their CNC mill (Infact, I believe the example he showed was this exact sprocket )

As to the wheels themselves, the rookie team we mentored last year used them, and their problems stemmed from the wheels loosening themselves unless you use loctite. The problem is when you use loctite, you break the press fit of the PEM nut into the side plate, and you have a useless wheel. Having a locknut now should resolve that issue nicely.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 15:41
Holtzman's Avatar
Holtzman Holtzman is offline
Sometimes...
AKA: Tyler Holtzman
FRC #2056 (OP Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: St. Catharines
Posts: 179
Holtzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Holtzman
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
A problem our team encountered was the PEM nuts actually completely separating from the rim parts.
If the screws loosen up, then the torque on the wheels will cause the screws to tilt, which will then cause the PEM nuts to pop out. The screw acts as a lever to pry out the PEM. What you saw was a symptom of the screws loosening. I'll double check our test models when I get home from school this weekend, and get back to you, but as long as the bolts are tight, this shouldn't be a problem.

And regarding our sprockets, I direct you to this post...
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...39&postcount=3

Now lets please stay on the topic of the wheels. PM me with any questions regarding the chassis.
__________________
"making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity." - Charles Mingus
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 17:34
thefro526's Avatar
thefro526 thefro526 is offline
Mentor for Hire.
AKA: Dustin Benedict
no team (EWCP, MAR, FRC 708)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,599
thefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to thefro526 Send a message via MSN to thefro526
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

did the wheels gain any weight over the v1 of the same size?
__________________
-Dustin Benedict
2005-2012 - Student & Mentor FRC 816
2012-2014 - Technical Mentor, 2014 Drive Coach FRC 341
Current - Mentor FRC 2729, FRC 708
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-11-2006, 21:36
Scott358 Scott358 is offline
Engineer/Mentor
AKA: Scott5736
FRC #5736 (Kingsmen)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Kings Park, Long Island, NY
Posts: 152
Scott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really nice
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Thanks for the work and info...

We're in the process of prototyping with the IFI's for the first time, and hadn't been aware of the issues. I'm really glad to hear it sounds like they've got the kinks worked out.

I know I can ask IFI the following, but since you're so close to this, perhaps you know:

1: Where there any outside dimensional changes, as we're using the step file from the web site

2: When the V2 wheel would be ready (as we're looking to order this week, and would obviously like to get the new wheels).

Again, thanks.
__________________
Scott5736 (formerly Scott3137(formerly Scott358))
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-11-2006, 14:32
Scott358 Scott358 is offline
Engineer/Mentor
AKA: Scott5736
FRC #5736 (Kingsmen)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Kings Park, Long Island, NY
Posts: 152
Scott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really niceScott358 is just really nice
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

In case anyone else was wondering, the following is the status from IFI as of today:

"Keep an eye on the wheel page on the forums. We do not have any spec
released from engineering at this time. The forums will be posted to
when
new information comes available. the wheel should be available to
purchase
in late November or Early December."
__________________
Scott5736 (formerly Scott3137(formerly Scott358))
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-11-2006, 16:21
Dan Richardson's Avatar
Dan Richardson Dan Richardson is offline
iR3 Creative
AKA: Dan Richardson
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL
Posts: 1,121
Dan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

It is in my experience with these wheels that many of the more pressing issues took place with the larger diameter wheels. I had witnessed many of smaller thicker diameter wheels going through competition unharmed.

However use of the larger wheels such as 8"x1" wheels were not able to hold up. Keeping the wheels concentric ( mainly due to the retainer which has apparently changed ) and if the wheels experienced any side loading from robot impact or field element nasty things seemed to happen.

One of our main problems is that as the tabs bent inward due to stressing levers as you claim our plates began to bend outward. Using our large diameter sprocket that we had used catastrophic failure accured in such a manor that half of plate peeled away from the wheel. Before the match the screws had been tightened and tho the tabs weren't in perfect condition but not terrible, it seemed as the screw had literally been ripped from the wheels.

Sounds like you are making changes to this so thats good. My question is tho look at your chasis and your initial support where the wheels tested under full load? It doesn't seem that your chasis is the typical weight of a robot. Just a curiousity, was weight added before conducting your testing.

Also where the wheels put any side loading such that it would emulate impact from a robot? Our wheels performed perfect when in straight lines, its when we were hit or turned did problems occur. ( Mainly the hitting part )

Also will testing occur on the larger diameter wheels?

I enjoy the benefits of the wheels i.e. Size options, ease of assembly and use in application, weight ratio, but still concerned as the structural integrity. Maybe not of the smaller wheels, but of some of the larger wheels.
__________________
CO-Founder of Robot in 3 Days and the Robot in 3 Day Challenge.


  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-01-2007, 17:19
Holtzman's Avatar
Holtzman Holtzman is offline
Sometimes...
AKA: Tyler Holtzman
FRC #2056 (OP Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: St. Catharines
Posts: 179
Holtzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond reputeHoltzman has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Holtzman
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

This week team 1114 received their V3 IFI Traction wheels. Earlier we addressed some of the improvements over the V1 wheels. While we thought that the V2 wheels were a large improvement over the V1, the V3's are even better.

This 3rd revision is even lighter, and easier to assemble. The new rim portion uses more interlocking tabs and eliminates the PEM nuts all together. While we have still to test them in competition, our experiences in assembly have been better than the V2's.
__________________
"making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity." - Charles Mingus
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-01-2007, 23:17
Justin M. Justin M. is offline
Mechanical/Driver
FRC #0321 (RoboLancers)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 310
Justin M. is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Justin M.
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

We used the IFI wheels last year. I was not happy with them. We completely destroyed one, although it was a direct hit with no protection. I'll give them that, it was more our fault. But the treads came off 4 times in normal match play. One time the tread came off it caught in the chain which put us out of commission for one match. Finally we had to rivet the treads down to the wheel to keep them from coming off....

Good idea but needed work...we'll keep it simple and grippy with the AndyMark KOP wheels, which are nice this year.
__________________
Team 321: CHS RoboLancers - Drexel University, CHS Alumni Assn., SDP, Philadelphia Motorsports, Lima Corperation
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-01-2007, 23:27
lukevanoort lukevanoort is offline
in between teams
AKA: Luke Van Oort
no team
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,873
lukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond reputelukevanoort has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to lukevanoort
Re: IFI Traction Wheels V2 Testing Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin M. View Post
Finally we had to rivet the treads down to the wheel to keep them from coming off....
Er, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the way the tread is supposed to be attached on an IFI wheel?
__________________
Team 1219: 2009 - Mentor
Team 587: 2005 - Animator, 2006-2008 - Team Captain
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
High Traction Robot Wheels Booger Inventor 10 17-07-2006 09:15
TO much traction??? (ifi wheels or AM wheels) Heretic121 Technical Discussion 9 04-02-2006 12:09
WHeels and traction Phil Paspalas Technical Discussion 7 12-01-2005 17:29
Results of traction test IBApril180 Technical Discussion 3 04-01-2003 18:56
Scientific Traction Testing at Nationals JamesJones General Forum 18 19-03-2002 22:18


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi