On photographs and FVC competitions...

[Billfred]

The topic came up in the Toronto Championships thread about the lack of photos of 1114's robot. I'll copy over the main discussion:

Originally Posted by 1885.blake

Steve, This ability to modify bots between ccompetitions (or even between matches) is one of the elephants in the corner of the FVC "room".

Would you want to ask any and everyone who has a picture of the 1114 Toronto Bot to not post it anywhere on the internet?

Would you want to ask all teams that saw the bot (and all the other bots), and are going to participate in another Championship, to not use any ideas they picked up from other teams during the Toronto Championship? Or is it OK to only use ideas from teams that didn't do as well as 1114?

In the exreme, would you want to urge teams not to look in textbooks to get ideas instead of thinking them up on their own (of course not, but I am exaggerating to make a point)?

I suspect that the Genie is out of the bottle any time a team participates in a Championship, a scrimmage, a practice, an exhibition/demo, etc.

I suggest that trying to keep 1114's Toronto bot hidden from all teams that were not at the Toronto Championship (after exposing it to all the teams and all the cameras that were there) is not going to work.

Isn't there a better alternative that involves bragging about the cleverness in the current bot and then building an even better one for 1114's next competition?

Maybe this is a topic for a new thread?

Blake

Now, I know for a fact that such redesigning happens--several robots I saw at Orangeburg looked completely different (and strikingly similar to Orangeburg champion 171 (now 1539)) in Atlanta.

Is there a difference between sharing designs in FRC and copying them from a photograph in FVC?

Will this result in triplets or quadruplets or septuplets by Atlanta, only fielded by unaffiliated teams?

Is it possible to expect a team's design won't be copied once it's seen in open competition?

[MrForbes]

I'm really eager to see some pictures from the Arizona tournament, since I didn't make it up there.....

(I do have some video, because my video camera did make it to the event)

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Billfred

The topic came up in the Toronto Championships thread about the lack of photos of 1114's robot. I'll copy over the main discussion:

Now, I know for a fact that such redesigning happens--several robots I saw at Orangeburg looked completely different (and strikingly similar to Orangeburg champion 171 (now 1539)) in Atlanta.

Folks,

The following lines are a repeat of something I posted in the other thread before I noticed that BillFred had created this one.

That (cloning/copying) is definitely going to happen and is 100% fair according to the rules.

So long as the rules remain unchanged, the only way I can think of to stay ahead of it (cloning/copying), is to constantly improve your strategy, your mechanisms, your software, your collaboration with your allies, and your driving. Once a machine is unveiled, the FVC rules allow other teams to absorb it's design in whole or in part into their machines.

I have been assuming that team with a truly complete full-season strategy will look forward to this; and will keep one or two tricks up their sleeves that they use to sustain a winning streak, rather than showing all of their cards in their first competition.

Blake
PS: I know what I espoused above is way, way easier said than done.....

[Ian Curtis]

It will result in copy cats, but chances are, the copys won't live up the originals. If 1114 fields a design, chances are it has gone through extensive building and testing. Sure team 1234 might see it, but if they lack the experience and mechanical genius of 1114, they probably won't be able to produce a replica that works well. I do feel however that this rule will lead to a more even game, not because 1234 will copy 1114, but becuase 9999, will see 1114's design and say, "Hmmm, I bet we can take this concept further" and base upon it an even better design.

I know in FLL, when we went to Nationals/Championships/Whatever-they're-called-nowadays we certainly upgraded our robot based on ideas of what we had seen other teams do. But we never copied anyone.

I'd go as far to say it's harder to copy someone piece for piece than it is to say, "Hey! 1114 used geared down motors and a few sets of tank tread to build their collector. I wonder if we can do it?" Chances are your design won't look similar to 1114's but it will probably work pretty decently.

[VEN]

I think that taking someone's design by looking at pictures is part of learning. If scientists wouldn't have worked together and shared their discoveries/information we would still be in the stone age. Someone creates something. Someone else looks at it and says "hey, that's neato" and either builds the same thing to see how the idea works or expands on it. I think FIRST is not about having a competition with only one first place. Everyone should help others suceed as much as they do. Sure I sound like one of those guys who says "Everyone's a winner" but in the end we're not striving to win a competition, we're striving to make this world better in the future. What's better...one team who wins everytime or all the teams who are successful, and who, in the future, can put their brains together and do something we only dream of right now.

[Jessica Boucher]

This discussion is hauntingly reminiscent of FRC in the early days of alliances, in which teams refused to post robot pictures for these very same reasons.

Now, look at where we are. Although some still choose to hold back, the majority feel that posting adds to the collective knowledge and makes every team better.

Although there is one huge difference here (there is no ship date), I feel that this will eventually even itself out to how FRC is today. Some still won't post, and that is their choice, but many more will, and it will naturally take game play to a higher level than if teams held back information.

This isn't patent law, but an educational competition. However, I think FVC is so new that it needs to naturally make its way through discussions like these and many others. So, give it time.

[fredliu168]

Personally, Our team is probably copying some of 1114's design. I spend hours (literally many many hours) looking at 1114 pics and vids. We're not going to look the same as 1114, but we're taking their ideas to lift their arm, and the use of feeders/chains to collect balls.

The reason for this, is we are lacking full time mentors, and none of our team members truly have any engineering experience. I know it does not justify us copying 1114, but realize that once a great idea comes out, there are often many companies that slightly modify and copy it. FIRST is meant to reflect the real world, and thats what people do in the real world.

[Synergy1848]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Personally, Our team is probably copying some of 1114's design. I spend hours (literally many many hours) looking at 1114 pics and vids. We're not going to look the same as 1114, but we're taking their ideas to lift their arm, and the use of feeders/chains to collect balls.

The reason for this, is we are lacking full time mentors, and none of our team members truly have any engineering experience. I know it does not justify us copying 1114, but realize that once a great idea comes out, there are often many companies that slightly modify and copy it. FIRST is meant to reflect the real world, and thats what people do in the real world.

and how exactally will you explain this in your engeneering journal?

[Holtzman]

I don't know how this got blown so far our or proportion. This season, our FVC team decided not to post detailed pictures of our robot. We feel we have a very unique design, and are very proud of it. The nature of the FVC allows teams lots of time to upgrade designs, and even emulate others. We understand this and are supportive of the rules as they are written. We hope teams will be inspired by what we’ve done, and use this inspiration to strive for an even higher level of excellence. That being said, we don't want to give away our competitive advantage.

There are a great number of FRC teams who do not post pictures of their robots until after build season. We will be more than happy to post pictures of our robot after FVC build season... sometime after April 13th.

FRC 1114 has always been very proud to share our designs. This off season, we've given drawings of our FRC drive train to 8 teams. Our helpful spirit extends to the vex realm, where we've mentored one team, and helped many others. Any team who came up to us in the pits was welcomed with open arms, and granted the full tour of the robot. They were free to take whatever pictures they wanted. That being said, we are not going to go out of our way to post pictures to make it easy for everyone to replicate the creative elements of our FVC robot.

I believe very strongly that the design process is as much important an aspect of FIRST as any other. If two teams work together in a collaborative effort, that’s one thing, but blatantly copying another teams design is another thing entirely. By doing so you’re missing out on the value of design process. The teams who came to our pits and talked to us about our robot were able to gain a glimpse into our design process. They learned about the mistakes we made, the obstacles we faced, and various iterations of our design. A team who just mimics what they see in a picture, loses out on the on a good chunk of the design process.

In school life, there are specific rules about academic dishonesty. We all do our own assignments so that we actually learn something from them, rather than just copying someone elses. Teams should go through the design process, from conception, to final implementation because this is the way we learn. I believe this is the reason that 1114 has improved so much over the last few years. We have always looked to the success of the powerhouses for inspiration. Look for ideas, concepts, possibilities, but put in the work yourself. Build prototypes, and proof of concept models.

So what am I really trying to say in this very long winded post? 1114 still won't be releasing photos of our robot. If you need help or advice with design, build, or programming, send me or any of the other 1114 members a PM. We’d be glad to help you out. Just don’t expect us to steal all your fun and give you all the answers.

Good luck to all teams. FVC1114 looks forward to seeing you in Atlanta!

[Jonathan Norris]

I am totally in agreement with Tyler on this one. The nature of FVC makes it such that there is no 'ship date', and with the how quickly you can build one of these robots they have the full right to protect their intellectual property (yes I am making this connection to copyrights). They are in a different situation then my teams were, our season was over after the Toronto tournament, so we decided we would share what we came up with during our FVC 'season'. However, if we were in the same situation as 1114 where our season extends to the championship I would have had second thoughts about sharing our design. Especially if we had put the amount of thought and great engineering design into our robot as 1114 has.

I made the mistake of posting a picture of the finals at the Toronto championship with our robot and 1114's in the background. Tyler had the picture taken down which was my mistake for posting in the first place. At the time i had the same mindset of posting pictures after FRC regionals, not worrying who's robot is in the picture. But FVC is NOT FRC, as i have stated before the time situations are much different and I believe teams should be allowed to protect their intellectual property in FVC. My apologies to the 1114 crew, and good luck keeping that beautiful robot under wraps. I will be very surprised if that robot is not in the finals at the Championship.

[TheOtherGuy]

I agree with the last 2 posts in that the team has the decision not to post pics or videos on their robots because it is their right not to allow other teams to copy their ideas or designs, and it takes away from the creative aspect of the sport. I personally do not wish to see Simbotics robot until nationals because I feel our team needs to develop and integrate our own ideas into our robot. That is what brings the competition to life: seeing each others ideas in action.
However, because our robot is far from its finished product and because we feel it is okay, we may post several pics of our robot if anyone wants to see it, and there are several movies on google (this is the final match)

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

I am totally in agreement with Tyler on this one. The nature of FVC makes it such that there is no 'ship date', and with the how quickly you can build one of these robots they have the full right to protect their intellectual property (yes I am making this connection to copyrights). ...

I agree completely that FVC teams should be able to do this.

But I wonder if, legally, teams may have already surrendered rights to likenesses of their machines to FIRST as part of registration? I know that FIRST requires human participants to surrender those rights (the link is to the 2006 Consent / Release Form) as a condition of participation -- not sure if that requirement extends to robots also.

Does anyone know the details of the FVC event registrations agreement? I didn't see any mention of this in the FAQ.

Anyway, even if FIRST does have rights to use images of competing FVC robots, I still agree that they should exercise those rights in a way that protects a team's design ideas until that team is ready to publish images.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Richard

But I wonder if, legally, teams may have already surrendered rights to likenesses of their machines to FIRST as part of registration? I know that FIRST requires human participants to surrender those rights (the link is to the 2006 Consent / Release Form) as a condition of participation -- not sure if that requirement extends to robots also.

As participants in an exhibition open to the public, and barring any restrictions imposed by the organizers and the venue upon their customers and exhibitors, anyone has every right to photograph robots and to distribute those photographs. In fact, photography is encouraged in most areas of the Ontario Science Centre (a science museum), where the event took place. If a team wishes not to distribute photographs of their own robot, that's fine. But they should not depend on the co-operation of the public at large to preserve their secret—the photographs are the photographer's property, and the photographer is free to do as he pleases with them.

I think that 1114 realizes all of this, and is just guarding against excessive exposure, in order to retain their competitive advantage as long as possible. If someone does post a photo, the team has no recourse other than to politely request that it be withdrawn by its owner. And apparently, it sometimes works. (Or did you twist Jonathan's arm to get that photo to disappear?)

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

I made the mistake of posting a picture of the finals at the Toronto championship with our robot and 1114's in the background. Tyler had the picture taken down which was my mistake for posting in the first place.

I wasn't going to pipe up on this thread, but... Wow. I totally respect 1114's decision not to publish pictures on their part, but I fail to see what right they would have to disallow others from posting pictures of their robot. I hope I am misinterpreting what you said here. Even requesting that a picture be withdrawn because it shows their robot seems like it's crossing a line to me.

The way I see it, once you've demonstrated your machine in public you can't try to keep the lid on it anymore. Like I said, if they don't wish to post pictures, more power to them, but anyone else who was there and feels like posting pictures should feel free to (in my opinion).

[Barry Bonzack]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

The way I see it, once you've demonstrated your machine in public you can't try to keep the lid on it anymore. Like I said, if they don't wish to post pictures, more power to them, but anyone else who was there and feels like posting pictures should feel free to (in my opinion).

It is my belief that everyone has knowledge because it was taught to them by a mentor figure; this means it is one's responsibility to then pass on that knowledge to some one else. The builders of the FVC 1114 robot at some point must have been taught these skills by friends, family, or mentors, therefore no knowledge should be kept secret because it was not kept secret from them. Our robots are not out for money here in FIRST which is why copyright laws do not apply. 1114 is a respectable team in many aspects, their robot has competed in public, and its whatever pictures have been taken can be used to inspire new ways of thinking in other students that have not been taught by mentors. This is how technology advances.