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Unread 05-12-2006, 18:41
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen
They aren't forced to do anything - in the propoal, those teams are free to do the busy work of re-typing everything.
How is saying "if you're going to reuse all that stuff you already did, you have to waste your time to re-type it" not forcing? Because it has the condition that you don't have to reuse it? I don't buy it. We're here to teach engineering skills, not busy work. If you go back to Dave Flowerday's post about what our team went through at Purdue, I consider that a punishment. We had kids that weren't able to enjoy almost a full day at a competition because they had to perform busy work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen
Because for anyone to be able to use another team's code, they will have to understand it first. Even the best-intended public code (kev or usfirst) still requires hours to fit into a complex scheme like what's used on a robot.
Granted, but it's not understanding how it works but understanding how to work with it. My previous post explains my stance on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen
So that other teams could use it? I don't know. Maybe so they don't have to retype all those comments they left out? Because it makes them feel good? Altruism? First fame? They're trying to get into heaven? It seems more stupid to purposefully obfuscate posted code than to simply re-type it.
I agree that obfuscating the code is more of a hassle than its worth, but I guarantee you there is someone out there that will do it. Then how do you handle that? Require that code be posted in a certain format? Do you then require teams to support any code that they make public?

Quote:
Why should completely spilling the beans on last year's robot be any different?
There's a difference between sharing a design and handing something out.

The teams that want to make themselves better will seek out the assistance of the teams that they want to learn from. The teams that want to make others better will seek out teams to teach what they've accomplished.

I can't tell you how many requests we received in 2003 about how our autonomous worked. We gave explanations both at competitions and remotely to anybody that requested it. I have seen many teams behave in the same way in all aspects of the competition. Want to know how 71 dragged everybody around the field in 2002? Want to know how 33 automated their arm in 2005? Want to know how team X did Y? Just ask. That's one of the foundations of this program that makes it so great. I can't think of another program in which participants share their secrets.

I really don't intend my involvement in this thread to be an argument. I just think that if we are going to have rules intended to level the playing field, they shouldn't hurt teams that put the effort in to go the extra mile.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 18:54
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Let me start off by making a bad analogy to hardware. In the past 5 years the hardware guys have made a significant improvement in the FIRST program by encouraging the spread of designs. From multiple speed transmissions to omni-wheels to some craziness called swerve drive- they are sharing everything! Yet, on the software side we want to keep our code hidden. Teams put their electronics in black boxes. It's getting bad. Maybe we should take a play out of the hardware guys book?

Here's my 10 cents...
Teams have a 1 season monopoly on their software. If a veteran team wants to re-use code from a previous year they should be required to post it in a "Software Portfolio" hosted by FIRST. The portfolio is publicly available to everyone. A new regional award can be created for veteran teams who share code, "The Software Award." An award that celebrates a teams generosity and their ability to write good software with even better documentation.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 19:12
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
Let me start off by making a bad analogy to hardware. In the past 5 years the hardware guys have made a significant improvement in the FIRST program by encouraging the spread of designs. From multiple speed transmissions to omni-wheels to some craziness called swerve drive- they are sharing everything! Yet, on the software side we want to keep our code hidden. Teams put their electronics in black boxes. It's getting bad. Maybe we should take a play out of the hardware guys book?

Here's my 10 cents...
Teams have a 1 season monopoly on their software. If a veteran team wants to re-use code from a previous year they should be required to post it in a "Software Portfolio" hosted by FIRST. The portfolio is publicly available to everyone. A new regional award can be created for veteran teams who share code, "The Software Award." An award that celebrates a teams generosity and their ability to write good software with even better documentation.
There is still a difference between hardware and software. Many teams did not share their exact design on hardware but what they did was visible and people caught up on their idea. Most teams took the time to teach people what they did too. Software is just like that and people do not need to see a team's code to understand the concept. It is easy enough to write something based on a concept but not for high schoolers. It is easy for professionals or the more experienced. Therefore, Sharing code is the team's business and it should be upto them if they want to share it or not.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 21:38
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bharat Nain
Most teams took the time to teach people what they did too. Software is just like that and people do not need to see a team's code to understand the concept. It is easy enough to write something based on a concept but not for high schoolers. It is easy for professionals or the more experienced. Therefore, Sharing code is the team's business and it should be upto them if they want to share it or not.
Can you explain... Are you saying that it is okay for teams without software engineers to flounder with software?
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Unread 05-12-2006, 23:44
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
Can you explain... Are you saying that it is okay for teams without software engineers to flounder with software?
Yes. Lets face it. FIRST has never really been an even playing field. Some teams have better engineering support over others. Same goes for programming. Some teams, like Wildstang(I only say this because they have posted on this thread) have accomplished a lot as far as programming goes. Their StangPS has been known to all and they have shared their designs. In my opinion, we should be grateful to them for sharing the concept in detail(I think I saw it on their website). They did not have to because they put in the hard work and were privileged enough to have the expertise. On the other hand, I am sure there are many teams out there who have complex code which do wonderful tasks but never release their code or concept to others. Bottom line: its their choice. So understand - I am by no means saying that teams should not share and the not so privileged teams should have crappy programs - because I know FIRST has taken steps to help teams with their basic needs(default code). But FIRST also provides a kit chassis to all teams and it is totally upto the teams if they want to use them or not. Some will, some won't, so what? The bottom line is always inspiration and having a running bot is a good start.

p.s. 25 doesn't have any flourishing software engineers so I am not standing up for my team by any means.
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Unread 06-12-2006, 09:50
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Their is a significant difference in the ability to reverse engineer hardware over software. Many people can look at an assembly and then create a design from it. Thereby duplicating that assembly without mechanical drawings. The same can not be said about the software. Sure, you can guess as to how the code is implemented. However, you still don't know the design or the implementation.

I think it would be a step forward for teams to share their code. It's against my perception of FIRST to allow veteran teams to dominate autonomous by leveraging years of software development. It might be a good solution in the private sector but not in FIRST.
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Unread 06-12-2006, 10:55
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

I don’t know what the big deal is. Many of you have typed more characters here than it would take to program the robot – autonomous mode included. So, your displeasure with the rule can’t be about wasted typing effort. Many have pointed out that the requirements change enough from year to year so that not much, if anything, from the code can escape customization. Since the rule, as all <R> rules, must only apply to what goes in the crate on ship day, then go ahead and start with the old code. By ship day it’ll be tweaked up beyond all recognition – TUBAR. Any code that hasn’t been touched, you can rewrite. You’ll probably find you’ve improved it, if not in function, then in the appearance.

There’s been a lot of discussion about the difference between hardware and software, especially as to why we can’t equate the two. Well, the main difference I see is that with software the raw material is infinite. We can create and destroy it with the press of a button. If we can live with leaving perfectly good hardware behind each year, then having to recreate software shouldn’t faze us a bit.

There are times when I wish the DoD had an <R71>. I often write CAE software to facilitate signature research and analysis. There are a number of dinosaurs from the eighties, usually written in Fortran, that try to predict atmospherics, bi-directional reflection, thermodynamics, and etc. I don’t know how many times management wants us to incorporate this chunk of code from the Air Force, or that from the Navy, into something we can use to predict the performance of future combat systems. They all have this joint meeting of planners, each wanting to leverage their programs, so they conclude we can just write a wrapper around stuff that may, or may not, have worked all that well to begin with. My group prefers to start from scratch with the code, to take the essence of what has been done and bring it into line with the 21st. century. So, there may be some method to the madness of <R71>. It forces us to revisit and perhaps improve upon what was done, instead of dragging along dinosaurs year after year.
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Unread 06-12-2006, 11:25
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

As i said in my last post and like alot of other people have said, FIRST is about learning. This rule is simply a big sign saying "learn from your code and know how it works" and so no one blindly copies things that they dont really know about (I know Kevin's code is hard to understand but an attempt can be made). Sharing your code is a great idea but in no means should it be the loophole for this rule. Yes teams that put in the hard work should reap the rewards but, these teams should be able to teach new programmers, robot designers, or someone with a question year to year about their code or part. I see copying and pasting code to be the same as sending a coppied CAD drawing of a mechanical component to a machinest. no one learns from anything. If some one learns from part of the robot in any way it is a whole of a lot better. FIRST is about teaching the students and simply copying and pasting or stealing designs is neither a goal of FIRST nor in the spirit of FIRST.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 20:27
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
Here's my 10 cents...
Teams have a 1 season monopoly on their software. If a veteran team wants to re-use code from a previous year they should be required to post it in a "Software Portfolio" hosted by FIRST. The portfolio is publicly available to everyone. A new regional award can be created for veteran teams who share code, "The Software Award." An award that celebrates a teams generosity and their ability to write good software with even better documentation.
There is a huge difference between hardware and software. Teams post their designs or pictures, other teams take them, and make them themselves. The thing with that is, they actually have to do some work actually making the parts. Or maybe they go and find a way to make it lighter or whatever.

With software, someone has to simply quickly download the files or do a quick copypasta. Maybe they have to go as far as to declare a few variables.

As Bharat as repeatedly said, you cannot compare hardware and software.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 23:19
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Re: Ethics 101: To re-use or not to re-use?

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Originally Posted by Dave Scheck
I agree that obfuscating the code is more of a hassle than its worth, but I guarantee you there is someone out there that will do it. Then how do you handle that? Require that code be posted in a certain format? Do you then require teams to support any code that they make public?
First, I beg everyone's forgiveness for posting three-in-a-row. My short response to this: no one is going to catch you if you re-use code and don't post it online. I'm not recommending it, but I'm simply saying, there's no reason to maliciously obfuscate code. However, I'll acknowledge the possibility that it might happen somewhere. But: You can't make teams be graciously professional. The best you can do is ask. Intentionally obfuscating code is certainly an example of this. No solution will be perfect.

Paul
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