On photographs and FVC competitions...

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Richard

But I wonder if, legally, teams may have already surrendered rights to likenesses of their machines to FIRST as part of registration? I know that FIRST requires human participants to surrender those rights (the link is to the 2006 Consent / Release Form) as a condition of participation -- not sure if that requirement extends to robots also.

Does anyone know the details of the FVC event registrations agreement? I didn't see any mention of this in the FAQ.

There is no such thing as an FVC event registration agreement, at least not for ConnVex.
Wow, while I understand and respect the decision not to want to reveal a robot's design via photos, it's seems a bit ungracious to me. FIRST isn't about the competition, it's about the inspiration so I agree that teams should not blatently copy but participate in the design process. However, I am letting teams that are coming to ConnVex know right now... I have worked hard to find a photographer to document the event, and have invited media to come to report on the event. There's no guarantee that your robot's photo will not be displayed somewhere. In fact, I hope it is, because then the word about FIRST will have spread!

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

I wasn't going to pipe up on this thread, but... Wow. I totally respect 1114's decision not to publish pictures on their part, but I fail to see what right they would have to disallow others from posting pictures of their robot. I hope I am misinterpreting what you said here. Even requesting that a picture be withdrawn because it shows their robot seems like it's crossing a line to me.

I can see what you are getting at, but you got to remember the difference between FVC and FRC here. If it was after a FRC competition, as I said before, I would not think twice. But this being a FVC competition where there is time for teams to study other robots designs and implements portions of them for future competitions. I feel that if a very (extreemly) successful robot like 1114 decides not to share their design with the world that is totally acceptable.

Let me relate this more to FRC, throughout the season I tend to study and observe as many robot designs as I can. But, because it is FRC is it very difficult to implement some of the great design characteristics i have studied during the season. Usually what most teams will attempt to do is work on an off-season prototype to test out some of the new designs they have encountered during the previous season. Which is something we are doing, building a tank drive system, 1114 being one of the teams who we have referenced for design ideas. However, even in FRC new designs are implemented based off other robots designs. Look at the 2005 game, where it seemed like 90% of the capping teams ended up using a variation of a T-bar design to manipulate the tetras. Even a team like 330, the beach bots, who had a very successful ball manipulation mechanism, which i remember distinctly from the Sacramento regional that year, moved on to another variation of the T-bar design.

My point here is that 1114 has this game figured out, and right now is not the time yet for them to be sharing their design. If they do now there will be imitators, and that is not in the spirit of FIRST. Its too bad for the community that because of the nature of FVC that we will all have to wait till after the championships to learn from their design.

edit:

(Or did you twist Jonathan's arm to get that photo to disappear?)

haha no twisting required, as you can (hopefully) see I understand where they are coming from.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

I wasn't going to pipe up on this thread, but... Wow. I totally respect 1114's decision not to publish pictures on their part, but I fail to see what right they would have to disallow others from posting pictures of their robot. I hope I am misinterpreting what you said here. Even requesting that a picture be withdrawn because it shows their robot seems like it's crossing a line to me.

The way I see it, once you've demonstrated your machine in public you can't try to keep the lid on it anymore. Like I said, if they don't wish to post pictures, more power to them, but anyone else who was there and feels like posting pictures should feel free to (in my opinion).

Just to clarify, Team 1114 has decided not to post pictures of their Vex robot until after the Championships in Atlanta. The team is definitely not trying to control the publishing of photos by others. This would both be foolish and out of line. Anyone who has a picture has every right to upload it as they wish.

[N7UJJ]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I'm really eager to see some pictures from the Arizona tournament, since I didn't make it up there.....

(I do have some video, because my video camera did make it to the event)

Go to
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...01578e7d0c6b68

and click on pictures and videos

Allan

[MrForbes]

thanks! (I already found the site....but now everyone else can see it too)

And thanks for your hard work putting on the Tournament!

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by KathieK

There is no such thing as an FVC event registration agreement, at least not for ConnVex.
Wow, while I understand and respect the decision not to want to reveal a robot's design via photos, it's seems a bit ungracious to me. FIRST isn't about the competition, it's about the inspiration so I agree that teams should not blatently copy but participate in the design process. However, I am letting teams that are coming to ConnVex know right now... I have worked hard to find a photographer to document the event, and have invited media to come to report on the event. There's no guarantee that your robot's photo will not be displayed somewhere. In fact, I hope it is, because then the word about FIRST will have spread!

Kathie I am really surprised that you say that this is not a competition when you are hosting a competition not a demonstration. VEX is totally different from FRC. The time between regional competitions is not 5 weeks but months apart. You can take your robot back home and build a completely new robot between events.
1114 has always been gracious and shared their knowledge, just not during build and competitions. Teams have been awed and inspired by them. They have become icons of the north. I am tired of our team members worrying about 1114. That said 1114 has come to our rescue and I know that events that I am at if 1114 is there they are the first team that I direct teams in trouble to. Ungracious? Definitely not!!!!!

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Kathie I am really surprised that you say that this is not a competition when you are hosting a competition not a demonstration.

I said FIRST is not about the competition, and I meant that the competition is a means to an end, and that end is being inspired.

VEX is totally different from FRC. The time between regional competitions is not 5 weeks but months apart. You can take your robot back home and build a completely new robot between events.

Yes, if you are inspired by another robot or strategy that you see at a Vex competition, you can go home and reconfigure the bot or your game strategy. And hopefully will learn something in the process. I think it's one of the plusses of FVC - the fact that you can (affordably) rebuild your robot and play the game all over again. It's not a one-shot-we're-committed-to-this-design-for-this-season like it is in FRC. I think that's why there is so much interest in Week 1 FRC regionals - everyone is watching to learn how the game strategy plays out, and what robot designs are out there.

1114 has always been gracious and shared their knowledge, just not during build and competitions. Teams have been awed and inspired by them. They have become icons of the north. I am tired of our team members worrying about 1114. That said 1114 has come to our rescue and I know that events that I am at if 1114 is there they are the first team that I direct teams in trouble to. Ungracious? Definitely not!!!!!

I apologize for implying that 1114 was not gracious in their actions. After reading Karthik's post after mine, I realize that they don't want to share their design and that's their right to do so. I was thinking it was a little odd to be asking other people to take down photos because they were in it.
And even if we end up seeing robots with similar designs (as we often do in FRC), there is always the human factor of drivers, coaches, alliance partners and pure luck thrown into every match.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Just to clarify, Team 1114 has decided not to post pictures of their Vex robot until after the Championships in Atlanta. The team is definitely not trying to control the publishing of photos by others. This would both be foolish and out of line. Anyone who has a picture has every right to upload it as they wish.

Come on 1114 - Post at least one long-range, out-of-focus, blurry snapshot. - And then throw down the gauntlet.

Dare any copy cats to survive against the clever driving, the improved software, and the faster, more reliable, higher volume mechanisms you are going to build next.

Because of all this discussion, I am extremely curious about the general outlines of the design.

Because I have my own favorite subsystems that I am going to continue teaching my team about; I'm pretty sure that by choosing among those subsystems they will continue to assemble a machine that can either give you a run for your money on offense or shut you down on defense.

So, while I am honestly not interested in seeing my guys clone your or anyone's design, I am very interested in seeing your team take this golden opportunity to give the rest of us a challenge to beat.

Come on.... You know that you want to do it.... At least a decent prose description of it....

Blake

[JaneYoung]

At the risk of not having a fully formed thought, I'd like to offer as much of it as I can at the moment.
For many years, the Austin community loved and supported a Mr. Lance Armstrong in his athletic endeavors. It is my thinking that he felt comfortable here and had his space, enabling him to develop, train, grow.
We talk the talk of being an athletic sports event, trying to gain that respect and global understanding. In order to help do that, the athletes have to have the space to compete and to train. They are in the fish bowl enough without members of their community adding to it. This team wants their privacy until they choose to release the information as they choose. We should respect that and respect the competition and the newness of this sport.

We will all win in the end.
.02
Jane

[ManicMechanic]

While there may not be agreement on the posting of pictures during the season, one thing that I would highly encourage is the more posting and sharing of designs off-season. How I would have loved to see some of the photos that are appearing now (or last year's equivalent) over the summer! Our team is in this for the learning (we are not expecting to be competitive this year -- simply being picked by an alliance at all would make our day), because we are so far behind.

What would be extremely desirable for us is for close-ups and documentation to show us how certain elements (lifters, conveyer belts, shooters, etc.) are constructed by posting several photos at intermediate stages of construction, so we can reverse engineer on our own -- again not for a specific competition, but for learning.

I speak not only for ourselves, but for about a dozen Vex teams (no prior FLL, Vex, or FRC experience), that are drying on the vine. The kits are bought, the funding for registration raised, but when we volunteered to organize a league, no one was interested because they were so far from being ready. Having to re-invent the wheel (or at least the drive train) without guidance is so time consuming that it discourages all but the most persistent user.

[MrForbes]

I've watched my sons learn about Vex over the past year, going from knowing nothing about it at all, to being able to build a competitive robot. In between was a LOT of playing...I can't call it anything else....starting with a modest goal, building something to see if it can accomplish the goal, and redesigning and rebuilding over and over to fix each weakness. The school robotics club started fall 2005 as real rookies, they bought a few Vex kits and had small friendly competitions among themselves. We also bought a couple kits for our family, and the boys worked with them as they felt the desire. The club bought more kits, and put on two Vex robotics camps over the summer, which I think really helped teach them the principles of design--the best way to really learn something is by teaching others!

So, look over the pictures, but realize that the only way to really get good at it is to try and try again, expecting to make mistakes and learn from them.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

I speak not only for ourselves, but for about a dozen Vex teams (no prior FLL, Vex, or FRC experience), that are drying on the vine. The kits are bought, the funding for registration raised, but when we volunteered to organize a league, no one was interested because they were so far from being ready. Having to re-invent the wheel (or at least the drive train) without guidance is so time consuming that it discourages all but the most persistent user.

This is a little off topic, but I encourage you to spend one afternoon creating any sort of facsimile of a field and then getting those teams together just to spend a day building and practicing.

Deflate all the pressure from the situation.

If you can build a squarebot you can practice driving, offensive/defensive/collaborative strategies, platform getting-onto, low-goal scoring, and atlas ball-herding.

You are plenty ready to do your part deciding which alliance will win a match - You just don't realize it yet.

During the building part of the day work together brainstorming some challenges and then go your separate ways to implement the ideas each team likes best.

Avoid doing worse than a squarebot and I say you are a success.

Don't over-think it. Just pick a garage or church or school cafeteria and just do it! I have photos proving that it is easy. :-)

Blake

[fredliu168]

This is a little off topic, but what other FVC championships can we expect to see 1114 and/or 3075 in other than the championships in atlanta?

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

This is a little off topic, but I encourage you to spend one afternoon creating any sort of facsimile of a field and then getting those teams together just to spend a day building and practicing.

Deflate all the pressure from the situation.

We tried! We started off with a formalized plan (sign up for 2 events in our league) and lacking interest, downgraded to "anyone just come and practice and build when you can", but not a single team contacted us. I'm not even sure if those teams even still exist (though I know the 20+ kits were bought).

For a team with no FRC or even FLL precedent, there needs to be a draw that keeps the students on the team. We've had several students come and build the squarebot, then stop coming. I think the problem is that without a technical mentor and/or explicit building instructions, they don't know how to get from Point A to Point B (how do you build a manipulator, let alone attach it to a squarebot). They have no concept of a competition and how exciting it can be, so even that aspect holds no appeal.

We have one advantage over the dozen teams that we're describing, which is that one student on the team and I have extensive FLL experience and know the potential of Vex. But we still have the skills of a "pre-FRC" team, which is why detailed photos with close-ups of gearing, axels, and manipulators would be of great value to us (though we certainly don't expect it during competition season). It took 4 weeks to complete our first functional dual reduction gearing on a manipulator, and we lost several students in the process. If we had had examples to use, it would have gone more quickly, and we might have held the interest of the students.

[fredliu168]

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

We tried! We started off with a formalized plan (sign up for 2 events in our league) and lacking interest, downgraded to "anyone just come and practice and build when you can", but not a single team contacted us. I'm not even sure if those teams even still exist (though I know the 20+ kits were bought).

For a team with no FRC or even FLL precedent, there needs to be a draw that keeps the students on the team. We've had several students come and build the squarebot, then stop coming. I think the problem is that without a technical mentor and/or explicit building instructions, they don't know how to get from Point A to Point B (how do you build a manipulator, let alone attach it to a squarebot). They have no concept of a competition and how exciting it can be, so even that aspect holds no appeal.

We have one advantage over the dozen teams that we're describing, which is that one student on the team and I have extensive FLL experience and know the potential of Vex. But we still have the skills of a "pre-FRC" team, which is why detailed photos with close-ups of gearing, axels, and manipulators would be of great value to us (though we certainly don't expect it during competition season). It took 4 weeks to complete our first functional dual reduction gearing on a manipulator, and we lost several students in the process. If we had had examples to use, it would have gone more quickly, and we might have held the interest of the students.

Much of VEX is quite difficult to learn. However, if someone spent time reading all of the manuel, and surfing around forums, asking a lot of questions, it can be done. I know this because I came into leading a VEX team not having any engineering experience. I had to learn how to build from scratch. The owner's manuel was a huge help to me.
As for pictures of VEX robots from previous years, it can be found on the vexlabs site and several other sites.
Also, I don't know how you managed to raise money to buy 20+ kits, but good job on that. However, I don't think building 20 competition robots is very effective in terms of interest and inspiration. I found that there is usually only a handful of students in a school willing to dedicate their time and effort into building a robot. It's much better to have 1-5 robots, with the students involved working as a team, than 20 individual robots.

Cheers,
FIG