On photographs and FVC competitions...

[Mr. Lim]

There are many pictures of 1114 taken that day. In fact, I took many of those pictures myself...

I know there are a lot of people who are excited about 1114's robot, and with good reason. I question who would win a match if you put 1114 against ALL of our school's VEX teams in what would be an embarrasingly competitive 6 vs 1 match. They ARE that good! (And 3075 is no slouch either )

In good faith, I couldn't possibly post a picture of 1114's robot for a number of reason, none of which are meant to be ungracious to anyone in the FVC community.

Remember that time when you wanted to see that REALLY good suspense movie, and your buddy walked up to you and told you how it ended, ruining the entire experience for you?

If I posted a picture, I would be that guy...

There are plenty of pictures out there, and I suspect the reason there aren't (m)any posted is exactly why I haven't.

Be patient, kick back, grab a bag of popcorn, and enjoy the show in Atlanta =).

The wait will be worth it!

[nonother]

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

We tried! We started off with a formalized plan (sign up for 2 events in our league) and lacking interest, downgraded to "anyone just come and practice and build when you can", but not a single team contacted us. I'm not even sure if those teams even still exist (though I know the 20+ kits were bought).

For a team with no FRC or even FLL precedent, there needs to be a draw that keeps the students on the team. We've had several students come and build the squarebot, then stop coming. I think the problem is that without a technical mentor and/or explicit building instructions, they don't know how to get from Point A to Point B (how do you build a manipulator, let alone attach it to a squarebot). They have no concept of a competition and how exciting it can be, so even that aspect holds no appeal.

We have one advantage over the dozen teams that we're describing, which is that one student on the team and I have extensive FLL experience and know the potential of Vex. But we still have the skills of a "pre-FRC" team, which is why detailed photos with close-ups of gearing, axels, and manipulators would be of great value to us (though we certainly don't expect it during competition season). It took 4 weeks to complete our first functional dual reduction gearing on a manipulator, and we lost several students in the process. If we had had examples to use, it would have gone more quickly, and we might have held the interest of the students.

There are plenty of pictures about from last year's competition. Check out VexForum.com for stuff beyond what is here in CD-Media. That said I think just tinkering around is sufficient. I (a student) started a team this year with another student and it's taken us quite a while but we now have a team of 4 that is proficient at building with Vex parts. It just takes finding people that are genuinely interested to begin with.

My biggest piece of advice for building stuff with Vex (and I think a lot of people here on the forum will disagree with me) is to think in Vex parts. Don't think "well I could build this," now let's figure out how to build it with Vex parts. My experience has been this leads to complete disaster. What in theory works just often can't be built for numerous reasons. Then once you have an idea, build it, test it, improve it. If the team truly loves building robots they'll have no problem spending countless hours tinkering to make it perfect once they can see it will work!

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Also, I don't know how you managed to raise money to buy 20+ kits, but good job on that. However, I don't think building 20 competition robots is very effective in terms of interest and inspiration. I found that there is usually only a handful of students in a school willing to dedicate their time and effort into building a robot. It's much better to have 1-5 robots, with the students involved working as a team, than 20 individual robots.

Cheers,
FIG

Actually, the 20+ kits are not mine. They were bought by a school district in a nearby city, and were intended for a dozen teams at the area high schools. Our team of 4-8 kids has 2 kits + peripherals.

[Synergy1848]

with a little over a week till atlanta isn't it time we saw a picturte of simbotics vex robot?

[Jared W]

Originally Posted by Synergy1848

with a little over a week till atlanta isn't it time we saw a picturte of simbotics vex robot?

Ya S.P.A.M. team 3228 made a post for robots going to Atlanta and only 2-3 robots have posted since then. You'd think with only a week left teams wouldn't care anymore. Plus, scouting for 69+ U.S. and Canada teams, 7+ Japanese teams, and more, you'd think teams would want to get their robot out. With teams at a maximum of 10 students, its gonna be a LITTLE hard to scout all those robots.

[sovierr]

Originally Posted by Synergy1848

with a little over a week till atlanta isn't it time we saw a picturte of simbotics vex robot?

I think it is time that all teams post picutres. There is not enough time to replicate and perfect a robot at this time - come on guys!!!

[EricRobodox]

edited

[fredliu168]

Originally Posted by Jared W

Ya S.P.A.M. team 3228 made a post for robots going to Atlanta and only 2-3 robots have posted since then. You'd think with only a week left teams wouldn't care anymore. Plus, scouting for 69+ U.S. and Canada teams, 7+ Japanese teams, and more, you'd think teams would want to get their robot out. With teams at a maximum of 10 students, its gonna be a LITTLE hard to scout all those robots.

NOT Japanese, Chinese

BIG difference there

[ManicMechanic]

There seems to be some frustration based on some teams not posting photos of their robots. There was a similar discussion on the FLL forum (if interested, I can e-mail you a copy if you PM me with your address). In summary, the consensus seemed to be that there is a wide range of gracious professional behavior, which spans from sharing complete photos & videos to sharing teasers to sharing nothing at all. While I certainly appreciate it when people do share photos, a team should feel the freedom not to if this is their preference, and a team should never be pressured to share, only later to wonder, "Would we have ranked higher against xxx if we hadn't posted?"

As a "lower end" team, it was easy for us to post photos because we knew that we had far more to gain than to lose. We had no illusions about the (un)likelihood of ranking in the top 8-15 (or of anyone "stealing" our designs), but thought we might stand a chance of being a second pick if we got on someone's radar. However, if we were a higher scoring team with a real shot at coming out closer to the top, we might have felt differently.

On the receiving end, I generally don't take a close-up shot (one designed to highlight a particular robot, as opposed to being caught in the background of a panorama) unless I get permission. I would NEVER post a close-up shot of someone else's robot without permission. When a team has worked as hard as most teams have on their bot, it seems that they have some ownership in an ethical sense, even if legally, they have forfeited these rights by showing it in public. The fact that many bots compete in multiple events complicates matters. I have no problems using a general idea (conveyor belt, grabbing strategy) seen an earlier tournament, but I would respect a team's request not to take or post photos in an attempt to replicate their design. Where is the line between "learning" and "cheating?" Probably "learning" if I benefit and "cheating" if the next guy does! Mainly, I would have to ask myself how I would feel if the positions were reversed. If our bot were copied, I suppose that if nothing illegal were done, I'd accept it, even if I didn't feel good about it.

Rules have to be made when consideration and consensus are insufficient, and it's my hope that GP will win the day in this one.

[gblake]

A different viewpoint - I endeavor to keep my feelings aligned with the rules of the event(s) in which I participate. In earlier messages I clearly outlined strategies that can be used to continually improve any FVC robot that has been placed in full public view during a competition.

As for a design used in a competition, exhibition or other public forum; the definition of "public" means that the cat is out of the bag, either for a select few who see it but collaborate to keep the "secret" to themselves (and perhaps gain an advantage over the wider population) or for the entire community.

Regardless "public" means, among other things, "not secret". There is no FVC rule that says designs will, should be, might be, could be, ought to be, etc. kept secret from folks who were not present at any particular public event.

In my opinion, attempting to squelch publicity of a public robot amounts to attempting to create and enforce a rule that simply does not exist. In fact the rules and tournament guidelines strongly imply quite the opposite. They say that robots compete in the light of day, that publicity is encouraged, and that anyone can make any change to any robot any time before putting it on the field for any match.

Therefore, I assert that there is a very strong case to be made for this statement: There is nothing wrong with posting a snapshot, description, scale drawing, movie or other rendering, obtained without subterfuge, of a robot that has been put on public display.

Remember the definition of PUBLIC....

Being ethical generally includes sticking to the rules and applying them equally in all equal circumstances. It generally does not include making up new rules and attempting to use peer pressure to deny someone else a freedom granted by the actual rules.

I shall feel no guilt if I am asked about a robot I have seen in public and I supply all the information I gathered in a public setting when that robot was present or operating. The robot was in PUBLIC.

Folks may wish they could have their cake and eat it too (compete in a PUBLIC tournament, but not reveal their current design); but I afraid that is a pretty much a physical impossibility. I strongly feel that they should not pressure others to conform to a "rule" that does not exist and is expressly at odds with the real rules.

To do so would hardly seem a gracious act.

Blake

[ManicMechanic]

As long as there is a generalized understanding in the FVC community that "public" means that posting pictures of other teams' robots is common practice and "fair game", it would be reasonable to do this. In FLL, few teams post pictures of their own robots, let alone other robots, not because it's illegal, but because it's not "commonly done." FVC is not FLL, but it's not FRC, either, and we in a newly emerging FVC community have the opportunity to determine what will become "common practice." However, if posting pictures of other teams' robots is considered common and acceptable, it then should be acceptable for a team to use whatever legal means possible to safeguard its design if it chooses to, such as "saving" certain strategies for later tournaments or keeping the robot covered when it's off the field. Teams that employ these strategies or choose not to post pictures should not be considered "unsporting", but merely operating within the confines of the rules. Of course, those teams that graciously share despite the knowledge that others may and will copy their designs are especially to be commended.

[sovierr]

Well, it seems the last few posts may have danced around the main issue:
Several FVC teams come with FRC experience, while several come with FLL experience (and some formed with no prior experience). The teams with no experience have no idea what the culture is. The FRC based teams expect pictures posted, as that is what is done in FRC. I love looking at pictures of other teams and seeing the different lines of thinking used to accomplish the same task. The FLL based teams have never done this before, because it is not part of their culture.

We need to forge a new culture for FVC. If we continue to have open ended build seasons, I understand and respect the desire for secrecy. I also know that when we tweak something on our robot, it may take a day or two to find the optimal conditions before it is working well. A major overhaul takes a great deal of time before it would work. I can't imagine a team scrapping a robot and starting from scratch now.

I think the time for secrecy is done, and the time for scouting is upon us. This event requires alliances that FLL does not. With 75-100 teams, there is no way to scout effectively without some "advanced scouting" to overcome the time required to make the mental picture of the robot match with the team number. Besides, I need something to do on our 10 hour bus ride to Atlanta. Why not spend some of that time looking at robot pictures?

Can you at least post them by Monday or Tuesday???

[gblake]

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

As long as there is a generalized understanding in the FVC community that "public" means that posting pictures of other teams' robots is common practice and "fair game", it would be reasonable to do this.

No - Correct conclusion - Wrong reason.

As long as a robot is displayed in public it is reasonable to do this. Common sense tells us this. By what authority would anyone or any entity assert that sharing images or descriptions of objects displayed in public is unreasonable.

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

In FLL, few teams post pictures of their own robots, let alone other robots, not because it's illegal, but because it's not "commonly done."

So... where is the empirical data to back up this assertion, I can think of several other reasons why published pictures of FLL robots might have been uncommon in the past. How many FLL communities have been examined in order to gather enough data to test the hypothesis you are advancing? Can you really defend this statement with anything other than your personal opinion and/or anecdotes?

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

FVC is not FLL, but it's not FRC, either, and we in a newly emerging FVC community have the opportunity to determine what will become "common practice."

Common Practice is irrelevant, unless we want to use the "tyranny of the majority" to interfere with the smooth running of teams that 100% abide by all the FVC rules and tournament guidelines. Tread very cautiously here. I definitely prefer Constitutional Republics to pure Democracies.

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

However, if posting pictures of other teams' robots is considered common and acceptable, it then should be acceptable for a team to use whatever legal means possible to safeguard its design if it chooses to, such as "saving" certain strategies for later tournaments or keeping the robot covered when it's off the field.

It simply doesn't matter if it is "considered" common and acceptable. It IS legal right now according to the documents that govern FVC. Therefore it IS acceptable already and shall be until those published rules and guidelines perhaps change. No one's (and no community's) permission is needed. This is the proverbial other side of the coin.

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

Teams that employ these strategies or choose not to post pictures should not be considered "unsporting", but merely operating within the confines of the rules.

See above, on what basis would anyone form any other opinion?

Originally Posted by ManicMechanic

Of course, those teams that graciously share despite the knowledge that others may and will copy their designs are especially to be commended.

We certainly agree here. None of us stand alone. The ideas we are recycling stretch back beyond Pythagoras. If we don't think we owe far more than we "own"; then we are not as clever as we think.

Originally Posted by sovierr

Well, it seems the last few posts may have danced around the main issue:
Several FVC teams come with FRC experience, while several come with FLL experience (and some formed with no prior experience). The teams with no experience have no idea what the culture is. We need to forge a new culture for FVC.

"The culture" you speak of is a very, very evanescent thing. Like a fractal, the more closely you examine it, the more fractured and convoluted it becomes. And, it is also only barely relevant in this conversation.

The mushy, amorphous notion of a culture is not something to hang your hat upon here. Just look up through this entire thread, then look at threads covering similar (gracious professionalism-ish) topics. You will find many common lines of thinking among the handfuls of folks who like writing messages in discussion threads; but you will also find enough well-reasoned dissenting opinions to blow out of the water any notion of a homogeneous FIRST "culture" that knows the correct answers to all questions of this ilk.

What we need to guide us in this specific case is a framework of FVC rules and guidelines published by the proper authority, a dictionary that includes the definition of the word "public", and the unleashed creativity of thousands of students and mentors.

Originally Posted by sovierr

If we continue to have open ended build seasons, I understand and respect the desire for secrecy.

Even if we don't have open-ended build seasons I understand the desire for secrecy. Furthermore, I respect it until the secret is revealed. However, once the secret item is made public by its owner; then it is, by definition, no longer secret. Anyone who disagrees should get their dictionary out.

Originally Posted by sovierr

I also know that when we tweak something on our robot, it may take a day or two to find the optimal conditions before it is working well. A major overhaul takes a great deal of time before it would work. I can't imagine a team scrapping a robot and starting from scratch now.

Even if a team does attempt to clone an FVC robot at the "last minute"; first refer one more time to the definition of public. Then...

I say more power to them. It they can catch up with the results of weeks of refining and tuning the mechanical and software parts of design; and can beat the original machine's team at strategy and driving on the field; and can do all of that in a few hours using just a photo or two, or a video; then I bow to the masters!

Blake

[Domino]

I just wanted to say that 3391 just started rebuilding there robot last week... GG

[fredliu168]

Originally Posted by Domino

I just wanted to say that 3391 just started rebuilding there robot last week... GG

.... You just started rebuilding your robot and the championships are next week. Well I really wish you good luck.

And remember, an awsome driver on a bad bot can beat a bad driver on an amazing bot anyday.
(quoted from someone)