How would I interface a flash drive to the RC?

[chris31]

Originally Posted by dcbrown

If you want to roll your own application/software, www.microchip.com sells a USB evaluation board:

DM163025 - PICDEM FS USB

and the MMC/SD daughter board that can be used with the above board.

AC164122 - PICtail Daughter Board for SD & MMC Cards

I've had both for almost a year, but not enough time to test the data logging software out.

A pre-canned serial data logger is also available like the Acumen DataBridge SDR-OEM-SF. It records all serial port traffic onto SD but is pricey.

I'd like a totally passive data logger that I don't have to send commands to in order to get it to log/save the data.

For debugging purposes I need not only all the raw sensor data and outputs, but intermediate steps of the code in processing the data. Its usually one of the intermediate steps that is messing up and causing problems.

Bud

The PICDEM board is like $60 and then i dont kno what the AC164122 costs. I have the designs mostly finished. The final cost should be about $30. Ill have code, design all that posted for free. And ill probably sell them at the value of the raw materials since I have some exra parts laying around.

[JBotAlan]

OK, I'll have to give some of these solutions a try.

Good point about the weight issues. I know every year we are at least .2lbs overweight...a little PIC board and flash drive are surely seen as expendable and will be ripped off ("Jake, are you sure we need that?").

I'll have to look at how big our EEPROM is; I might be able to just use that--even though using a PIC with an SD card or CF would be the funnest (wow, spell check isn't whining about the word "funnest") project.

Thanks for all your suggestions,
JBot

[chris31]

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

OK, I'll have to give some of these solutions a try.

Good point about the weight issues. I know every year we are at least .2lbs overweight...a little PIC board and flash drive are surely seen as expendable and will be ripped off ("Jake, are you sure we need that?").

I'll have to look at how big our EEPROM is; I might be able to just use that--even though using a PIC with an SD card or CF would be the funnest (wow, spell check isn't whining about the word "funnest") project.

Thanks for all your suggestions,
JBot

If you run it off teh dashboard port then it wount be any weight to the robot.

[ozrien]

Actually, we (Cross the road electronics) have a device that will allow reading and writing to/from an SD card or USB thumb drive. Powered by the same technology in USB-Chicklet, it interfaces to the SD/USB device and provides a gateway to serial rs232 port (program port) on the RC. Not only will you be able to log data into FAT32 files, but will also be able to script autonomous and PID gain control. The script can be written on any laptop with a card reader or USB port. The device is called Chicken-AID (Autonomous Interface Device). Chicken-AID will require an RC driver similar to the camera but no where near as complicated.

Omar Zrien
Chief Software Engineer
Cross The Road Electronics
Team 217, The Thunder Chickens

[chris31]

Originally Posted by ozrien

Actually, we (Cross the road electronics) have a device that will allow reading and writing to/from an SD card or USB thumb drive. Powered by the same technology in USB-Chicklet, it interfaces to the SD/USB device and provides a gateway to serial rs232 port (program port) on the RC. Not only will you be able to log data into FAT32 files, but will also be able to script autonomous and PID gain control. The script can be written on any laptop with a card reader or USB port. The device is called Chicken-AID (Autonomous Interface Device). Chicken-AID will require an RC driver similar to the camera but no where near as complicated.

Omar Zrien
Chief Software Engineer
Cross The Road Electronics
Team 217, The Thunder Chickens

It says it will be release November 06 but i dont see any pictures or prices for it on your website.

[ozrien]

Originally Posted by chris31

It says it will be release November 06 but i dont see any pictures or prices for it on your website.

Ha sorry about that, we've corrected that page. We have been focusing on the release of USB-Chicklet so unfortunetely Chicken-AID won't be released prior to kick off. We do have working prototypes so hopefully we can manufacture soon.

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by ozrien

Actually, we (Cross the road electronics) have a device that will allow reading and writing to/from an SD card or USB thumb drive. Powered by the same technology in USB-Chicklet, it interfaces to the SD/USB device and provides a gateway to serial rs232 port (program port) on the RC. Not only will you be able to log data into FAT32 files, but will also be able to script autonomous and PID gain control. The script can be written on any laptop with a card reader or USB port. The device is called Chicken-AID (Autonomous Interface Device). Chicken-AID will require an RC driver similar to the camera but no where near as complicated.

As ridiculously cool as that sounds (I'm bummed I didn't come up with it), I would never use a prebuilt solution like that. I understand it is meant to level the platform so less experienced teams, but I would have to build it myself first. (scampers around to get parts to copy off of Chicked-AID )

That would be nice...I probably will copy the idea...

JBot

EDIT: Just out of curiosity (if you're going to reveal any of it) is it PIC based? I've gotta get me one of those!

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

As ridiculously cool as that sounds (I'm bummed I didn't come up with it), I would never use a prebuilt solution like that. ...

I'm not following your reasoning there.

What is it about pre-built solutions that you don't like, and why wouldn't you use them on an FRC robot? Interpreting your statement above literally, I guess you'd buy raw stock and make your own screws? [EDIT: of course that's rhetorical. I know very well that you are part of a great team that would not let you waste time making screws. ]

Many of us have made our own components for the fun of it, or to save money, or when similar COTS parts were not available. But I can't see a good reason for making something that you could buy as cheaply, especially during FRC build season.

BTW, my day job is designing electric motors and electronic controllers to drive them. FRC rules prevent me from making custom motors and controllers for my team's robot, but even if they didn't I am sure there would be a better uses for my time during build season. Also (like many others here on CD), I have built custom wheels and gearboxes for FRC robots. But I'd only do it again if my team felt there was a clear advantage to be gained, one that could not be gained by using COTS components.

[chris31]

Originally Posted by JBotAlan

As ridiculously cool as that sounds (I'm bummed I didn't come up with it), I would never use a prebuilt solution like that.

Well, If your more into the DIY type of projects and want to copy the idea (you dont re-invent the wheel everyday do you?) I will have mine finished soon. The main problem I have now is I have no OI. So im using an cold PC to spit out packets like the OI would. Ill want to test in on the OI on kickoff day to make sure there any anything funky with it.

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by Richard

I'm not following your reasoning there.

I figured I wasn't very clear.

I like some prebuilt solutions--Victors, PWM cables, the RC/OI, and the rest of the control system comes to mind. However, I like building my own devices for more than one reason. I like building my own devices because there is a higher sense of accomplishment--I built that vs. I bought that. Second, I learn a lot when I make these devices. I don't want a "black box" on the robot that I don't know even the slightest of its internals--NO! I want to know what goes on inside that box. And, since I think a PIC would be useful here, and our controller is PIC based, it might do me some good to get my feet wet with PIC programming. So I see it more beneficial to "roll my own" hardware solution on this.

Plus, "rolling your own" is just so much cooler.

Realistically, will I use something like this during build season? Probably not. What will I probably end up doing? hooking up my lappy to the dashboard port and logging on PWMs 7ish - 12. (BTW, are 13-16 still transmitted through the dashboard port even if I don't generate their signal from code? Are they even transmitted at all?)

Originally Posted by Richard

What is it about pre-built solutions that you don't like, and why wouldn't you use them on an FRC robot? Interpreting your statement above literally, I guess you'd buy raw stock and make your own screws? [EDIT: of course that's rhetorical. I know very well that you are part of a great team that would not let you waste time making screws. ]

Can you program a screw to write to an SD card? Also, me, make a screw? I'd probably not only thread it the wrong direction, but I'd destroy 3-4 tools in the process, along with removing some fingers...never EVER let the programmer touch the machines...

So why don't I like prebuilt solutions? Because homebrewn is so much sweeter!

(hey, I'm a dreamer )
JBot

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Matt Krass

...I'm not sure if you can draw enough power right off the serial port, but you should be able to draw from a few PWMs to power it,...

Check the rules for the legal way to power a custom circuit. In recent years, a separate circuit breaker from the main battery has been required.

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Check the rules for the legal way to power a custom circuit. In recent years, a separate circuit breaker from the main battery has been required.

Not entirely true; the gyros were powered off the 5v out, and so was our camera.

<R57> The use of additional electronics is intended to allow teams to construct custom circuits for their robots.
The custom circuits may be used to indirectly affect the robot outputs by providing enhanced sensor feedback
to the Robot Controller to allow it to more effectively decide how to control the robot. In addition to the
required branch power circuit breaker, smaller value fuses may be incorporated in the custom circuits for
additional protection. All outputs from the custom circuits must be connected to the analog inputs, digital
I/O, TTL Serial Port, or Program Port on the Robot Controller.

It only says that a custom circuit must be connected to analog inputs, digital i/o, or serial ports. It doesn't say that you must draw the power from the circuit breaker. Of course, if you do need 12v, then yes, you do need to go through a circuit breaker/fuse according to other rules, but if the 5v is enough, then go for it.

And I've had a change of heart and might buy a Chicken-AID when they come out. Making my own would require a ridiculous amount of work that I really don't feel like doing...

JBot

[DonRotolo]

If you're planning to sue the monitor for development only, and not competition, then you should inquire in the National Instruments datalogger / LabView forum. Danny Diaz (who works for NI) can give you help in getting their 6009 logger connected to the robot.

We were a NI pilot team last year, and we spent about a week collecting data this way before shipping. We did find some glitches witht he aiming system, and modified the design to get around them.

The effort to connect the logger to the robot is not that hgh, since it's all temporary, and there's almost nothing the logger cannot measure. Once you learn a little about LabView, you can make a logging system that's pretty sophisticated.

This is how it's done in industry.

Note that Danny & friends have just released a "robot simulator" that uses the 6009 to simulate your robot - so you can play with the code without having the robot physically present. This is big.

Don

[JBotAlan]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

If you're planning to sue the monitor for development only, and not competition, then you should inquire in the National Instruments datalogger / LabView forum. Danny Diaz (who works for NI) can give you help in getting their 6009 logger connected to the robot.

We were a NI pilot team last year, and we spent about a week collecting data this way before shipping. We did find some glitches witht he aiming system, and modified the design to get around them.

The effort to connect the logger to the robot is not that hgh, since it's all temporary, and there's almost nothing the logger cannot measure. Once you learn a little about LabView, you can make a logging system that's pretty sophisticated.

This is how it's done in industry.

Note that Danny & friends have just released a "robot simulator" that uses the 6009 to simulate your robot - so you can play with the code without having the robot physically present. This is big.

Don

My coach said something about a datalogger, but I never heard more about it, and since my team's not on the pilot team list, I guess this isn't an option.

Darn. It sounds really cool! But it looks like we missed the deadline.

JBot

[DonRotolo]

You can get a single-channel data logger for under $25, and a NI 6009 goes for about $250.

Don