Go to Post I wouldn't want to replay Lunacy -- the Moon is a harsh mistress! - Richard Wallace [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 4.17 average. Display Modes
  #196   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 01:57
Kamikaze Kamikaze is offline
Registered User
FRC #0955 (CV Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Corvallis, OR, USA
Posts: 18
Kamikaze will become famous soon enough
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

An observation about game complaints: Speaking as a 4th-year FRC programmer, I would say that the differences between the competence of programming teams will be more related to the programming skill, enthusiasm, and awareness of good development practice of the team members more than a particular familiarity with a specific component.

So I don't think the arguments about cameras being easier for veterans that have been presented in this thread hold much water. Teams with quality robot code will have good programming as long as they can retain their skilled members and good practices (e.g. use revision control, sub-divide tasks, test at every step, etc.). The best way to improve your programming team is by having members become passionate about computer science in their own time and investing some effort to go read a few books and papers (and you certainly can't level that out with rules).

I'm not a big fan of the CMUCam's capabilities either. However, it's certainly a relevant technology for us roboticians. Guess what Stanford used on their winning DARPA autonomous vehicle? A camera augmented with laser range finders. This stuff will be important, even though we won't get to play with bayesian inference engines on our dinky PICs.

Finally, perhaps it's valuable to see the wide range of opinions that exist about this year's game, but I think some people are being unnecessarily negative in this thread ("hate" is a strong word and all that). Maybe we should reserve some judgement on whether the game design was good or bad until we actually get some robots built and see some competition. Sorry for adding another rant to this thread (meta-rant though).
Reply With Quote
  #197   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 02:51
Ryan Dognaux's Avatar
Ryan Dognaux Ryan Dognaux is offline
Back Home in Indiana
FRC #4329 (Lutheran Roboteers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,675
Ryan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond reputeRyan Dognaux has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ryan Dognaux
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

My pre-build / competition reaction to the game: I like it. 2 thumbs up game design committee, you created a game that's not only challenging but allows for multiple strategies and styles of play, and continues to build on using the camera while making autonomous mode more important this year more than ever as well.

This is going to be one interesting year.
__________________
Ryan Dognaux :: Last Name Pronounced 'Doane Yo'
Team 234 Alum: 2002 - 2005 :: Purdue FIRST Member: 2006 - 2009
Team 1646 Mentor: 2007 - 2009 :: Team 357 Mentor: 2009 - 2012
Team 4329 Mentor: Current
STL Off-Season Event: www.gatewayroboticschallenge.com
Reply With Quote
  #198   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 03:03
Gabe's Avatar
Gabe Gabe is offline
Pocket Full of Tools
FRC #0604 (Quixilver)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: California
Posts: 654
Gabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond reputeGabe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

I'm on mechanical team and all I want to say is...

I Want Some Obstacles On The Field!


Seriously, they could have placed a 4 by 4 piece of pine on the gound at the very least. Imagine how much harder THAT would have been to navigate. Imagine the difficulty in accounting for unpredictable obstacles that block your robot while trying to track an unpredictably moving light.

Actually, I can imagine what 2008 will be like...
__________________
Team site: Q U I X I L V E R
My favorite tool is my imagination; I’m always finding new ways to use it.

Last edited by Gabe : 07-01-2007 at 03:05.
Reply With Quote
  #199   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 09:16
darkember darkember is offline
Registered User
AKA: Billy
FRC #0375 (Robotic Plague)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 133
darkember is a glorious beacon of lightdarkember is a glorious beacon of lightdarkember is a glorious beacon of lightdarkember is a glorious beacon of lightdarkember is a glorious beacon of light
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkember View Post
you know what will be hard, if a robot is nearly six feet tall and it trys to climb a ramb onto another robot. The robot will probably fall over.
Im sorry for this earlier comment. i didnt mean to cause so much arguing.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #200   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 11:45
Katy's Avatar
Katy Katy is offline
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 257
Katy has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond reputeKaty has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Katy Send a message via MSN to Katy
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
It's still better than last year, when the scoring system went down (and even often when it was up) there was little indicator of the exact score as the game pieces were recycled back into play. After seeing pictures taken from the alliance stations in New Hampshire, it isn't quite as hard to see the other side as one might imagine.
It is unquestionably better than last year but last year was not very good and so that is not a particularly narrow category. I'd rather talk in terms of "good enough" and "not good enough" and I am afraid this may eventually fall into the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
I people got shot with poof balls, tetras broke, balls popped, and just about all that stuff before too...
I was thinking on the order of magnitude of stack attack bins...basically enough that it could possibly be a reasonably sized additional cost to running a regional. Also it I assume it is probably more difficult by a significant margin to injure yourself with a poof ball than a large chunk of swinging metal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah Kleinberg
Another concern with the rack is that it's expensive to build. Somewhere on chiefdelphi someone said that the wooden version of it costs around $500 to build, and it's still not going to be the same as the competition model. Even if you have the money and space for a rack, your next problem is time, especially on smaller teams. Rookies are going to have a pretty hard time this year I feel...
Wow that is even worse than I had imagined! Can anybody confirm the source/provide a link?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
How would rookies learn to program better if older teams had to learn a new sensor? That makes no sense to me. If anything, it's easier on the rookies, because mentoring teams can help them with far more expertise than if they were learning new technology as well.
The the benefit that somebody can teach you the system is small compared to the advantage the teaching team has. Many teams are kind and generous to all in need this is true but I do not think FIRST should be banking on the good will of the teams in the league to ensure a level playing field. I think the game design itself should cause a level playing field. I think things would be a lot more even if every team was struggling to learn the new sensor.

That said I can respect the fact that FIRST has perfected the use of the camera and they know this one works. There is a lot to be said for having working parts. If somebody can show me that the lack of resources to test and debug new sensors is why we do not have new sensors I will respect that. I'll also gladly offer to help test and debug new sensors myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetraman
I think you underestimate what rookie teams and low budget teams can produce. Rookie teams can be powerful for the reason they don't have background knowledge and can work with a greater number of possibilities than teams who know what works and what doesn't.

My team I'm mentoring is a low budget team. It's different from 174 which had money to spend as needed. I actually found it slightly easier to design with simple materials and cheap design than get into lots of mechanisms.
I know rookie teams are powerful. I mentored one last year that went to semifinals in Boston and I spent highschool on a low budget team in WA which did well on several occasions. If they were hopeless cases there wouldn't be much point in attempting to look out for them because they'd be well...hopeless. It is out of a deep respect for rookie and low budget teams that I attempt to speak out for their interests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze
An observation about game complaints: Speaking as a 4th-year FRC programmer, I would say that the differences between the competence of programming teams will be more related to the programming skill, enthusiasm, and awareness of good development practice of the team members more than a particular familiarity with a specific component.

So I don't think the arguments about cameras being easier for veterans that have been presented in this thread hold much water. Teams with quality robot code will have good programming as long as they can retain their skilled members and good practices (e.g. use revision control, sub-divide tasks, test at every step, etc.). The best way to improve your programming team is by having members become passionate about computer science in their own time and investing some effort to go read a few books and papers (and you certainly can't level that out with rules).
Speaking as a 6th-year FRC participant who happens to be majoring in computer science I can agree with you that there are obviously more important things that determine the difference between a competent programming team and an incompetent one. I consider the things you listed to be basic requirements to a functioning programming team. However once you have those basics, having somebody who has done the task before (in this case finding a green light and steering with it) it a tremendous advantage. Your argument strikes me to work along the same lines as if I said, "we shouldn't worry about having programmers who can code or not because nobody will have a working anything without oxygen." While the logic is absolutely true it is rather irrelevant. I am assuming already that most teams which would gain a competitive edge from being in the same starting place as older teams on a sensor have programmers who know how to program with common sense, communicate with the rest of the team and teach themselves more. This is probably the same way that you assume a competent programming team will be programming in a setting with oxygen.

I can't tell you how comforting it is to see you guys argue with me. I really want to be wrong on all of this.

Last edited by Katy : 07-01-2007 at 11:46. Reason: forgot to write a "then" on an "if" statement
Reply With Quote
  #201   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 12:13
Tetraman's Avatar
Tetraman Tetraman is offline
FIRST on my mind
AKA: Evan Raitt
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,322
Tetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Idea Time!

Since we think that visability might be some small concern in one way or another during compeition, is it expected to see some teams trying to score their keepers in the parts of the Rack the opposing alliance view the easiest?
__________________
"For every great theory about design, there is a better and contradictory theory about design. And don't let the irony of that escape you."
Reply With Quote
  #202   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 13:33
Jason W's Avatar
Jason W Jason W is offline
Registered User
FRC #3538 (RoboJackets)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Troy Michigan
Posts: 27
Jason W is a jewel in the roughJason W is a jewel in the roughJason W is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via AIM to Jason W Send a message via Yahoo to Jason W
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by nparikh View Post
Crucial to what? Losing?

Last year at an off season event i finally ripped the camera lens part off and threw it at a rookie.. i said dont lose it, it cost a lot of money... We then won the event...

Camera's are my anti-fun
Reply With Quote
  #203   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 13:36
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,817
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katy View Post
Wow that is even worse than I had imagined! Can anybody confirm the source/provide a link?
Yes. We paid ~$600 yesterday for materials. Constructed entirely of wood and PVC, with the chains and all.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #204   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 14:29
teh_pwnerer795 teh_pwnerer795 is offline
Registered User
AKA: !!Mitch!!
FRC #1392
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Ajax, Canada
Posts: 142
teh_pwnerer795 is just really niceteh_pwnerer795 is just really niceteh_pwnerer795 is just really niceteh_pwnerer795 is just really nice
Send a message via MSN to teh_pwnerer795 Send a message via Yahoo to teh_pwnerer795
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
I'm on mechanical team and all I want to say is...

I Want Some Obstacles On The Field!


Seriously, they could have placed a 4 by 4 piece of pine on the gound at the very least. Imagine how much harder THAT would have been to navigate. Imagine the difficulty in accounting for unpredictable obstacles that block your robot while trying to track an unpredictably moving light.

Actually, I can imagine what 2008 will be like...
no i agree with you... there should be some obstacles on the field. however! as a programmer myself for the first year, and any 1 one else new would probally agree with me on this..... auto mode would be intense to the point that people would not score any points in 15 seconds... i could be wrong.. but those are my thoughts
__________________
Great Art is Created; Master Pieces are Stolen

[n00b]Teh_Foxdonut teh_pwnerer795 - CounterStrike:Source
Reply With Quote
  #205   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 15:06
Protronie's Avatar
Protronie Protronie is offline
Have big wrench...and will use it!
no team
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 617
Protronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud of
Send a message via ICQ to Protronie Send a message via Yahoo to Protronie
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qbranch View Post

ALSO I would like to congratulate FIRST on a great challenge design, I think that it does an awesome job of providing an attainable goal to all levels of teams, from rookie to your single and double digit teams. And, all scoring and defensive opportunities are about balanced for their weight in the overall score outcome of the match. Good job game design!

-Q
I have to second that! This game looking like it could be winnable by any team.
Great design!
But lets not forget... its about the students! There are no losers in First
__________________
Protronie rule 5 - When the big wrench starts swinging, get out of the way!
Reply With Quote
  #206   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 15:09
Tetraman's Avatar
Tetraman Tetraman is offline
FIRST on my mind
AKA: Evan Raitt
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,322
Tetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by teh_pwnerer795 View Post
no i agree with you... there should be some obstacles on the field. however! as a programmer myself for the first year, and any 1 one else new would probally agree with me on this..... auto mode would be intense to the point that people would not score any points in 15 seconds... i could be wrong.. but those are my thoughts
I actually also want another obstacle...like additional places to put rings for points...but because this game can revolve around needing space to place rings and needing space to defend the other alliance from placing rings...wide open spaces are the best idea
__________________
"For every great theory about design, there is a better and contradictory theory about design. And don't let the irony of that escape you."
Reply With Quote
  #207   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 15:10
Protronie's Avatar
Protronie Protronie is offline
Have big wrench...and will use it!
no team
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 617
Protronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud ofProtronie has much to be proud of
Send a message via ICQ to Protronie Send a message via Yahoo to Protronie
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
I'm on mechanical team and all I want to say is...

I Want Some Obstacles On The Field!


Seriously, they could have placed a 4 by 4 piece of pine on the gound at the very least. Imagine how much harder THAT would have been to navigate. Imagine the difficulty in accounting for unpredictable obstacles that block your robot while trying to track an unpredictably moving light.

Actually, I can imagine what 2008 will be like...
You do have obstacles... they called other robots.
You can either go around, move them or my personal fav ... over them
__________________
Protronie rule 5 - When the big wrench starts swinging, get out of the way!
Reply With Quote
  #208   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 15:47
Cody Carey's Avatar
Cody Carey Cody Carey is offline
,':-)
AKA: C. Carey
FRC #0306 (CRT)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Corry, PA
Posts: 1,137
Cody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond reputeCody Carey has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cody Carey Send a message via Yahoo to Cody Carey
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Ok, My reaction is that I don't like the game so much. Last years game was awesome, because anybody who came in and sat down could understand " If you put the ball in the hole, you get points for it", because it was reminiscent of basketball. The game let teams choose multiple routs of design: Shooter, Dumper, defense, or all three.

With the introduction of the FIRST KOP wheels, the playing field for defense has been leveled. In previous years we have made custom wheels that enabled us to push anybody, even with IFI traction wheels. These new FIRST wheels are more grippy, and have harder rubber than our custom ones, which means that we will be using them this year. With everybody having the same High traction wheels, FIRST has effectively eliminated defense in this years game (Except for the limited weight advantage that can be gained from weight/height differences).

As for the mechanical design portion of the game, teams are left two options, build an exceptional articulated arm, or build an exceptional lift robot. Building an articulated arm is old hat, and I don't envision building a ramp/lift to be all that difficult. Also, I don't envision too much scoring on the other side of the spider rack, because in order to do this successfully, you have to implement a good camera setup, which quite a few rookie teams won't be able to to, and a fair number of non-rookie teams were unable to do last year.

My last qualm with this game is the complexity of it. We have 120 seconds to complete it, and there is so much strategy in this game that it is kinda like completing a game of Chinese-checkers in two minutes. Not everyone who comes in and sits down will be able to understand what is happening, and after running the game animation for my 14-year-old brother twice, he still didn't understand the entire form of the game.I guess that I wish the game was more design-intensive, and less strategy intensive. That would have provided a more exciting game for non-FIRST viewers, and more exciting game play for FIRST participants.


Just some thoughts on the subject,

-Cody C
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #209   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 17:05
Tetraman's Avatar
Tetraman Tetraman is offline
FIRST on my mind
AKA: Evan Raitt
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,322
Tetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C View Post
Ok, My reaction is that I don't like the game so much. Last years game was awesome, because anybody who came in and sat down could understand " If you put the ball in the hole, you get points for it", because it was reminiscent of basketball. The game let teams choose multiple routs of design: Shooter, Dumper, defense, or all three.

With the introduction of the FIRST KOP wheels, the playing field for defense has been leveled. In previous years we have made custom wheels that enabled us to push anybody, even with IFI traction wheels. These new FIRST wheels are more grippy, and have harder rubber than our custom ones, which means that we will be using them this year. With everybody having the same High traction wheels, FIRST has effectively eliminated defense in this years game (Except for the limited weight advantage that can be gained from weight/height differences).

As for the mechanical design portion of the game, teams are left two options, build an exceptional articulated arm, or build an exceptional lift robot. Building an articulated arm is old hat, and I don't envision building a ramp/lift to be all that difficult. Also, I don't envision too much scoring on the other side of the spider rack, because in order to do this successfully, you have to implement a good camera setup, which quite a few rookie teams won't be able to to, and a fair number of non-rookie teams were unable to do last year.

My last qualm with this game is the complexity of it. We have 120 seconds to complete it, and there is so much strategy in this game that it is kinda like completing a game of Chinese-checkers in two minutes. Not everyone who comes in and sits down will be able to understand what is happening, and after running the game animation for my 14-year-old brother twice, he still didn't understand the entire form of the game.I guess that I wish the game was more design-intensive, and less strategy intensive. That would have provided a more exciting game for non-FIRST viewers, and more exciting game play for FIRST participants.


Just some thoughts on the subject,

-Cody C
Yes!

Exactly my issues with the game as well!
__________________
"For every great theory about design, there is a better and contradictory theory about design. And don't let the irony of that escape you."
Reply With Quote
  #210   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-01-2007, 17:25
Corsair Corsair is offline
Registered User
None #1778
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
Corsair is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: RACK & ROLL Reaction

personoly i like challenges, down with silver platters. it will be interesting to see what people do during the competition...at the place where i went for the kickoff had one of those racks made and it seems when you put pressure on a leg that leg stops moving. what i am really wondering is what they will do NEXT year...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Zelda Twilight Princess: Who's finished, and reaction? JoeXIII'007 Chit-Chat 9 13-01-2007 23:40
rack and pinion. greencactus3 Pneumatics 17 04-11-2004 23:24
Rack OakCrewz OCCRA 3 12-11-2002 22:05
and so the chain reaction beings... Anton Abaya General Forum 1 07-12-2001 22:59


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:07.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi