Innovation First- What gives?

[Blair Frank]

After looking at some replacements/ bonuses for stuff that came in this year's KOP. Eventually, that led me to Innovation First. And then, I started screaming. They charge $7.49 for a replacement antenna for the OI! How is it fair for IFI to charge exorbitant prices when it has a monopoly on all of the business for KOP replacements? The "Chicklet" costs 129.99. How can an up-and-coming rookie team pay for something like that. Or worse, the easy to lose power supply costs 19.99. How is it fair to make someone spend their (not unlimited) money on an "official" power supply? IFI already has all the business, so why do they need to charge so much? It seems as though they aren't showing much gracious professionalism by charging 7.49 for a part that seems like it should cost less. I would like to know the community reaction, and also, what you think should be done.

-Blair

[jgannon]

I don't know how much this stuff actually costs to design and manufacture. I've always wondered what exactly makes a Victor cost $120. Nonetheless, the electronics system that comes with the KOP would cost in excess of $2000 if purchased from IFI. Since your whole KOP plus the entry fee to the competition costs $6000, you can assume that IFI is selling it to FIRST for somewhat less than that, and the savings are being passed along to you. IFI donates a lot of money to FIRST, and I suspect that you still come out with a net savings, even if you buy more stuff from IFI.

On a related note, everything that I have checked for price between IFI and other companies are very similar... the old trannies, speed controllers, wheels, motors...

As far as the Chicklet costing too much, this device was designed by a student in the FIRST and CD community, and is almost certainly being sold at a reasonable price. It is certainly meant as a luxury item... you don't need USB joysticks. If you don't have the $130, flightsticks will work just as well.

Just because IFI has all of our business doesn't mandate that their prices be cheaper... you can't sell things at a loss and make it up on volume. Besides, somebody has to pay JVN's salary, right?

[Adam Y.]

I honestly think that the problem stems from the fact that no one really understands how expensive these tools are in the real life. I just discovered that the programmer/emulator to the Texas Instruments DSP (Think PIC only more powerful) that Im working with is more expensive than what most rookie teams spend on their robot. The development board Im working with costs just as much the OI alone and while it's more powerful than the OI it's still is an amazing price for a device that just gives me easy access to the physical pins and USB programming. Im sure that someone else is going to point out the fact that the board Im using is more powerful hence it's more expensive but the PIC development boards I've seen fall into the category of slighly less expensive than the OI. That board was only designed to do one thing which is run motors. Im sure the largest expense people forget is the cost in actually developing these types of devices. This has to be one of most interesting aspects of electrical engineering. Unfortunatly, it's also one of the experiences that FIRST can't provide.

[RoboCoach]

Concerning all of this discussion about costs, I haven't seen anyone mention economies of scale. Building a handful of devices will be a lot more expensive than knowing 1500 or so are sure-sales.

Let's take AndyMark.biz as an example. Their transmission are being sold at $330. I know a team in Florida who is making their own tranmission. Without any labor, each transmission parts come out to be $300. Has anyone tried to go out and make a custom transmission with out having the experience. I bet the cost of each transmission would come out to over $500 bucks a piece (including labor).

I'm sure this number would come down (including labor) considerably if they were to gear up for quanity production. Probably not down to 330$ (design variables notwithstanding), but as you can see, the potential savings are huge.

The consideration here is that this applies in other areas of the organization as well. This is not to necessairly comment one way or the other on the IFI pricing/cost structure, but to be something to keep in mind when trying to distill the numbers.

[Adam Richards]

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

After looking at some replacements/ bonuses for stuff that came in this year's KOP. Eventually, that led me to Innovation First. And then, I started screaming. They charge $7.49 for a replacement antenna for the OI! How is it fair for IFI to charge exorbitant prices when it has a monopoly on all of the business for KOP replacements? The "Chicklet" costs 129.99. How can an up-and-coming rookie team pay for something like that. Or worse, the easy to lose power supply costs 19.99. How is it fair to make someone spend their (not unlimited) money on an "official" power supply? IFI already has all the business, so why do they need to charge so much? It seems as though they aren't showing much gracious professionalism by charging 7.49 for a part that seems like it should cost less. I would like to know the community reaction, and also, what you think should be done.

-Blair

You probably aren't aware, but IFI barely breaks even on its FIRST parts, and it isn't unheard of that division of the company to go into the red once and awhile. It makes most of its money on its RackSolutions parts. The Chicklet, developed by Cross the Road Electronics (correct the name if I'm wrong), costs at least $100 in parts to manufacture. Labor to make it and also charging a little bit more to cover R&D bring the price to $130 as we know it. You don't need the Chicklet. Go on eBay and buy analog joysticks for $10-30 a pop. You don't gain extra buttons from the chicklet, as you're still limited to the number of available buttons on a regular joystick.

Nothing needs to be done, the prices are fair, and while they seem high to people usually unfamiliar to robotics, they aren't excessive one bit.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Agree with Adam. Welcome to the world of boutique dealers. You say IFI has a monopoly on the FIRST market. I say IFI is locked into a really pretty small market. 1500 customers is just not enough for the economies of scale to start working on these kinds of parts.

[Blair Frank]

Allow me to rephrase. I'm not so much frustrated by the price of the "luxury" items, but rather the cost of the little things. 8 dollars for an antenna seems a bit excessive, as does 20 for the OI power supply. They've been known to go into the red, yes, but when you have a monopoly on the only legal parts, you should make some sort of effort to make them affordable, especially for the little, seemingly cheap things. My beef is not so much about the high-end items, but rather the lower-end items.

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by Adam Richards

You don't gain extra buttons from the chicklet, as you're still limited to the number of available buttons on a regular joystick.

This is not true. In mode 1(y,y) you get 12 digital buttons supported including the POV. Not to mention, you can configure them ANY way you like.

Please read the user manual.


http://www.crosstheroadelectronics.c...anual_rev1.pdf

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

After looking at some replacements/ bonuses for stuff that came in this year's KOP. Eventually, that led me to Innovation First. And then, I started screaming.

Think and investigate before reacting in such a manner.

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

They charge $7.49 for a replacement antenna for the OI!

Do you have a clue about how much of what you get from IFI for free to start with? Take care of what's there and you never need a replacement. You do know that IFI sponsors these forums, sends people to every FIRST event (the ONLY FIRST supplier to do so), and provides loaner equipment to teams in need at events.

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

How is it fair for IFI to charge exorbitant prices when it has a monopoly on all of the business for KOP replacements?

Please call IFI and ask. They'll gladly tell you exactly how much robotics business they do and what their overall profit ISN'T (after you factor in their engineering hours and what they do for free EVERY YEAR). Could you imagine anyone who is profit hungry developing a business around a maximum of 1300 customers? And when they began there were far fewer teams than this. Rack Solutions is their very profitable business that allows them to be so kind to us in the FIRST community. As for the monopoly, I guess you weren't around FIRST before IFI when stuff barely moved because of signal loss, incompatibilities, etc. The seamless electronic integration we now have is a beautiful thing.

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

The "Chicklet" costs 129.99. How can an up-and-coming rookie team pay for something like that.

You forgot your question mark. This is not mandatory to use and it's not even an IFI product. crosstheroadelectronics.com (founded by team 217 engineers) developed this and even set the price. IFI is helping out by providing the store front and distribution. Im sure the Copioli brothers of 217 (one of them is a WFA winner too, in case you didn't know that either) can enlighten you on the price as well.

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

Or worse, the easy to lose power supply costs 19.99. How is it fair to make someone spend their (not unlimited) money on an "official" power supply?

Easy to lose? I've been involved with two separate FRC teams since 2001, and never once was one lost. After a few years we wore one out once. Oh, yeah, you don't even need the thing to provide power at competition. Again, take care of what you have if you can't afford the 20 bucks.

Originally Posted by Blair Frank

IFI already has all the business, so why do they need to charge so much? It seems as though they aren't showing much gracious professionalism by charging 7.49 for a part that seems like it should cost less. I would like to know the community reaction, and also, what you think should be done.
-Blair

Spouting off without all of the facts is a bad idea. It's also bad to invoke the gods of "Gracious Professionalism" to judge others.

[Blair Frank]

Thank you all for your input, and in some cases, point by point dissection of my ideas. Please allow me to retract all comments made. thanks.

[Ken Patton]

I heard (and maybe its not true) that those cross-the-road guys use poultry in their development, and at a couple bucks a pound, thats gonna add up...

Seriously - I think the one thing that IFI rarely gets credit for - but deserves massive credit for - is their high reliability under the conditions we use their parts. I think they have a pretty strong track record that justifies their prices. I can count on one finger the number of times in many years that we had a problem that actually was an IFI problem (and not something we caused oourselves).

Ken

[ChuckDickerson]

The radios from previous years have been manufactured by EWave for IFI. IFI is actually giving you a deal on the replacement antenna. EWave charges $10. Next time you are in Radio Shack look and see how much a replacement antenna for a radio or cordless phone costs. Also look at the price for replacement wall-wart power supplies are while you are there. Now consider that Radio Shack markets to a much larger customer base than IFI does. Now consider how much IFI stuff you get (OI, RC, 4x Spikes, 4x Victors, the CMU Camera, the Compiler, all the cables and servos, the KitBot Chassis, etc.) for the $1000 of your registration fee. IFI is giving you a hell of a deal even if they charge you $7 for a replacement antenna or $20 for a lost wall-wart. IFI doesn't make much if any profit from it's robotics parts.

[petek]

I'd like to add one more justification for the cost of IFI parts: support.

There is an IFI person (sometimes two) at every FRC competition from setup Wednesday through packing up Saturday night. These people bust their youknowwhats making sure that their stuff works all week long. In their "spare time" they often go out of their way to help teams avoid problems before they get on the field and even troubleshoot stuff they don't even sell. I doubt that there are many teams which haven't benefited from their assistance.

Now, how many other suppliers do you know of with that level of commitment to the customers of a product which barely breaks even?

[Matt Krass]

Whoa guys! Calm down, go easy on the guy. He slipped, he even admitted it and retracted what he said, is there any reason to keep coming down on him? Probably should just lock up the thread here.

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

Do you have a clue about how much of what you get from IFI for free to start with? Take care of what's there and you never need a replacement. You do know that IFI sponsors these forums, sends people to every FIRST event (the ONLY FIRST supplier to do so), and provides loaner equipment to teams in need at events.

You do realize FIRST pays them to be at each event, which you can be assured that it isn't cheap on FIRST's end either. More over, a few of the folks representing IFI at events, are volunteer's who have only there costs covered.

Also, at one point, i'm not sure if it's still true, but the loaner equipment was actually owned by FIRST.