Advantage given by succesful autonomous mode

[Pavan Dave]

I agree. I think this year it will not be as important because you do not get any major advantages like a little break to get balls. I think that this year it is however crucial nonetheless because you automatically have three rings in a row that can not be moved. This means that it is easier to make four, five, etc., in a row.

Pavan.

[KDawg]

Autonomous can mean that the opposing team has no chance at all at having a row of 8, (which will be very hard to accomplish anyways), and if you can get a keeper on, it can't be negated. I think it's very important.

Just my two cents.

[Jeremiah H]

I see what some of you all are saying about this not being as challenging, but here is an idea for you.

Let's just say that you have a very fast drivetrain that is capable of beating the other alliance's robots to THEIR side of the rack at the beginning of autonomous. If you do, you now have the opportunity to allow your program to do the aligning and scoring on your blind side. This not only could give your alliance a definite defensive foothold on the other side, this could give your alliance the opportunity to build even further around (6, 7, maybe even8), and as you came further around to your side of the rack, the harder it would be for the opposing alliance to get a spoiler in the most desired place on your row (middle, I would think, would be where you'd want to break it up). Now, just think how dangerous 3 bots with this 'blind-side auton scoring' capability would be. it would make it wery feasible to get an 8-ringer row.

<I know this is a stretch, and I don't know if i can talk my team into trying it, but I think it would sure be cool if someone could pull it off.> JH

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

This year's autonomous will not be AS important as Aim High's (where the winners of autonomous won a vast majority of matches), but it will be far more important than in Triple Play or FIRST Frenzy. Depending on how the game plays it could be minimally the value of Stack Attack, but it could range to have great importance.

This is an important perspective that I hadn't considered. In 2005, fifteen points was a good score for autonomous. Two was most common. In most matches, it wasn't a dealbreaker either way, but it gave you a head start by possibly holding a whole row, or at least a pair of goals. In 2004, unless you were team 190, autonomous wasn't a huge deal (much as I loved it) because it just meant that you had to either go to the other side of the field to herd, or you could spend the extra 30 seconds pushing goals around. From a scoring perspective, the difference in points was negligable. I love autonomous, but I think it's key to make it so that those fifteen seconds don't absolutely break the back of your opponent. Hanging three keepers is an achievable goal, and gives a definite advantage by starting with eight points and a chance at bigger rows. Last year's autonomous is exciting, but it's no fun to have your average alliance come up against one crazy robot, and start out down 40.

[Jimmy Cao]

I think this year's auto mode will still have great value. Maybe not as high as last year's, however.

The Keepers scored in auto mode can be very important in the formation of chains of 6/7/8. I think it's not very feasible to make a chain of 8 without 2 or 3 of them being keepers.

Also, "winning" auto mode can set your alliance up with a slight, yet possibly useful, lead.

[Doug G]

I agree with those who say that this year Autonomous is a bit of a let down and reminds me a lot of 2005's except there's no hanging anything to knock down. Unless you're with some great teams, your chances of stacking three in a row in autonomous is extremely low. Today we played around with our 2005 bot to see how easy it is to place a ringer. The first try took about 2.5 mins, the second try it took about 1.5 minutes and there wasn't much improvement after that. Obviously our gripper is not suited for this game, but if its that hard to line up our robot when we have full control, it'll be very tough to do in autonomous. We feel dedicated to try and get it to work, but I bet a majority of teams won't be able to do it. Hopefully I'll be proved wrong.

Another bummer is that there's nothing else you can do in auto mode for points. Drive to the opposite side and try defend someone? That's about it.

[gblake]

I may be wrong, but the maximum an alliance can score during autonomous is 8pts, and no other advantage (ie, go on defense first, or score additional pts).

I want to really emphasize what other folks have said, by offering this perspective. At the end of the autonomous mode you haven't scored any points. No referee computes a score at the end of Auto during this game, and no bonus is given to anyone. So, don't think at all about what your score is at the end of Auto....

Instead at the end of Auto you should think about how your alliance is now positioned for having an expected score (high, low or medium) at the end of the match.

This year's Auto is about accomplishing objectives that prep your alliance for the rest of the match, not about writing down a score at the end of Auto. Computing your score at that moment is akin to asking the proverbial "wrong question".

Blake

[+()c|D]

The alliance with the most points during the autonomous period is going to have an advantage because the points scored during auto. mode cant be canceled out or de-scored.

[dtengineering]

Ahhh... the beauty of an exponential series...

ANY tube you put up there has the potential to double your score. It doesn't matter whether it is the first... in auto mode... or the last.

What you do in auto mode doesn't just ADD to what you do in driver mode... it multiplies it. In matches between top alliances it may turn out to be one of the most important auto modes FIRST has devised so far.

And I don't think you need to use the camera to score in auto, either. Sensors, obviously... the camera, no.

Jason

[Guy Davidson]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

I want to really emphasize what other folks have said, by offering this perspective. At the end of the autonomous mode you haven't scored any points. No referee computes a score at the end of Auto during this game, and no bonus is given to anyone. So, don't think at all about what your score is at the end of Auto....

Instead at the end of Auto you should think about how your alliance is now positioned for having an expected score (high, low or medium) at the end of the match.

This year's Auto is about accomplishing objectives that prep your alliance for the rest of the match, not about writing down a score at the end of Auto. Computing your score at that moment is akin to asking the proverbial "wrong question".

Blake

I really agree with you. I see this year's autonomous as providing you with a better position to build onto, rather than a score to transfer. This year's autonomous could really give you either control of a row, or control of a column, both of which can put you in a very good situation to score from.

Guy

[Donut]

Originally Posted by 1885.Blake

This year's Auto is about accomplishing objectives that prep your alliance for the rest of the match, not about writing down a score at the end of Auto. Computing your score at that moment is akin to asking the proverbial "wrong question".

This is really what I think FIRST has been wanting autonomous mode to be for some time; the only reason I believe they made last year's auto as important as it was is so that teams would be forced into doing it, with not bothering to try basically "giving the game" to an opponent who does. This year's is just Triple Play's autonomous again, but with a better target system this time.

Also, think outside the box; scoring a keeper is not the only useful thing you can do in autonomous. I'm glad to see the 15 seconds back; since I'm confident we will get the camera working with ease after using it so much last year, I'm looking more to work on what to do after/aside from scoring a keeper...

[Guy Davidson]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Ahhh... the beauty of an exponential series...

ANY tube you put up there has the potential to double your score. It doesn't matter whether it is the first... in auto mode... or the last.

What you do in auto mode doesn't just ADD to what you do in driver mode... it multiplies it. In matches between top alliances it may turn out to be one of the most important auto modes FIRST has devised so far.

And I don't think you need to use the camera to score in auto, either. Sensors, obviously... the camera, no.

Jason

I'd like to quote what Jason said because he put it in words better than I thought I could. Due to the exponential scoring of the nature, the relationship between autonomous and teleoperated is no longer addition, it's multiplication. Which is why I'm starting to think it could end up proving to be as important as Aim High was. Just because with some fast offense, you could end up with a row 5 of which won't be amazingly hard to defend due to it's "heart" being guaranteed.

[P1d40n3]

Everyone seems only to be considering the points; what about defense? The cage that houses the spiders can be knocked three feet off it's base, right? Why not knock the cage towards your opponents? That makes it harder for the enemy to score (the cage will interfere), while making it easier for your allies to score. Of course, if you knock it while your allies are trying to score....

[PhilBot]

I left our first team discussion thinking that auto mode was HUGELY important.

There are lots of things you can do in auto mode that are usefull.

1) Naturally you can place keepers. To me this is a HUGE advantage, because there are only two ways to guarentee holding a spider as your own... Place a keeper or (oops, nearly gave away a strategy). There will be lots of chaos in a game, and knowing that a certain spider is locked will be a huge asset. Especially if you have several robots with auto modes. Placing three keepers on the same level in a 1 -3- 5 position (under lights) means you only have to fill the gaps to get 32 points.

2) Auto mode is the only time you can get almost excluside access to the rack, so it's you one moment to grab your favorite position

3) If your auto mode is not good enough to place keepers, then be a spoiler.. race down to the other end to prevent the other side from scoring. Or just be ready to grab one of your ringer from that end and bring it back.

Also...

Just because auto mode is short, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be creating automated function in your robot to be used at other times in the game.

Think how hard it's going to be to place a ringer on the other side of the rack, on one of the diagonals (based on poor visibility). We're planning on seveal auto modes that can align with any spider based on known heights and available target lights. You have lots of spare inputs available on the OI, use them.

Imagine being able to run to the opposite end of the filed, turn generally towards the rack and then hit the "Place on top row" button. We did this last year with our shooter.

Think of any actions you are likely to have to do in a hurry, and then automate them.

We had so many auto options in autonomous mode last year, we created a tiny switch that could be plugged directly on the RC. Just before a match we'd just dial up the one we wanted. Just pausing before making a run for goal was a killer strategy.

Here's our Auto-Switch:
http://www.team1629.com/AutoModeSwit...1/Default.aspx

[MattB703]

Originally Posted by Pavan

...

because you automatically have three rings in a row that can not be moved.

...

Pavan.

My famous last words in response to this;

It will NEVER happen!

No alliance will be created that will have 3 robots able to all get keepers in autonomous in a single match.

Matt B.