Innovation First- What gives?

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

Do you have a clue about how much of what you get from IFI for free to start with? Take care of what's there and you never need a replacement. You do know that IFI sponsors these forums, sends people to every FIRST event (the ONLY FIRST supplier to do so), and provides loaner equipment to teams in need at events.

You do realize FIRST pays them to be at each event, which you can be assured that it isn't cheap on FIRST's end either. More over, a few of the folks representing IFI at events, are volunteer's who have only there costs covered.

Also, at one point, i'm not sure if it's still true, but the loaner equipment was actually owned by FIRST.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by BiTurboS4

You do realize FIRST pays them to be at each event, which you can be assured that it isn't cheap on FIRST's end either. More over, a few of the folks representing IFI at events, are volunteer's who have only there (sic) costs covered.

Also, at one point, i'm not sure if it's still true, but the loaner equipment was actually owned by FIRST.

Careful Mr. Fields, you might be letting your bias show through a little there. It would be more factually correct to say that IFI has a contractual obligation to provide support personnel to attend each official FIRST competition event. The cost for that support is mutually agreed upon by both parties involved, and is fair.

That aside, we seem to go through this discussion every year. IFI contributes an enormous amount of time, energy and money into their support of the FIRST program. Beyond the robot control system, they support the field and arena controllers, design and fabrication of the kitbot chassis, design and fabrication of the FIRST CMUcam II, kitbot transmissions, distribution point for the USB Chicklet, distribution point for the FIRST store, and many, many other items. The vast majority of this effort is just based on cost recovery, and much of it is made up of loss leaders.

Yes, they are the only source for several parts that all teams must use to compete. But as Kevin correctly pointed out, the inverse is that they must bear all the cost and risk associated with designing and fabricating a run of parts that are unique to the FRC competition, and cannot be used or sold elsewhere (who else is going to buy a folded metal pan and tilt stand for a custom CMUcam II unit?). If FIRST changes their mind about including a custom-built IFI part in the Kit Of Parts late in the development process, IFI must eat the whole cost (and they have in the past).

FIRST and IFI both receive a significant benefit from their partnership. But all of that benefit is focused on mutual support for the FRC program, and not making a fortune by financially pillaging the teams that are served. FIRST and the teams get a robot control and radio system that is pretty much rock solid, and has had very very few problems over the years. IFI gets to work with a well-established customer base, they get to work with an organization and a program that they obviously enjoy, and if things work out well they get their costs covered. The teams get good service and support from both organizations. Everyone comes out ahead.

-dave

[Bharat Nain]

I wish to point you to the UFH page: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/uf...eedetail&id=53 . Hopefully, you will understand more about IFI from there. And if you seriously think IFI is charging way too much, why don't you go look at other robotics hobby sites? They charge just as much and if some of their prices are low, most of the time there is no support or/and the product is not of utmost quality. Please keep things in the right perspective before you start ranting. I have been privileged enough to work with the IFI guys in the past few years and although there have been bugs in the system, there may have been unresolved issues, the important thing remains and that is they have always kept very friendly relations with all their customers(FIRSTers). If you want to speak, do so from experience, not from ignorance.

[Mike Copioli]

I'm not going to continue to slam people for thier comments. I think enough of that has been done. Except for Ken,...Poultry...your kill'n me..... I will say that I agree with Ken and Dave. IFI gets taken for granted. Without them, FIRST competitions would be nightmare. Who else is going to provide not only products, but services intended for FIRST and only FIRST. I doubt any company, if approached and asked to perform the tasks that IFI performs, would be able to do it for a fraction what IFI charges. Even if they could provide a cost effective solution for the hardware. The support they provide would be, at best, difficult to match.

[Covey41]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Careful Mr. Fields, you might be letting your bias show through a little there. It would be more factually correct to say that IFI has a contractual obligation to provide support personnel to attend each official FIRST competition event. The cost for that support is mutually agreed upon by both parties involved, and is fair.
-dave

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by Covey41

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

What exactly are they deciding? And why would any sucessful business ever post a contract on a public forum just to apease a handful of sceptical people. Since you are so concerned about things being hidden, why don't you post a public profile that includes something other than just a user name?

[DCA Fan]

Originally Posted by Covey41

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

Not to slam on people, but seriously, think before you speak. There is no reason for FIRST to post the details of any of it's contracts to the general public, nor should there be any reason for it to occur. We are not being price-gouged, there is no financial scandal, there is frankly nothing that would require the public disclosure of such contracts. I highly recommend you drop this issue, it will get you nowhere.

[Covey41]

Originally Posted by DCA Fan

Not to slam on people, but seriously, think before you speak. There is no reason for FIRST to post the details of any of it's contracts to the general public, nor should there be any reason for it to occur. We are not being price-gouged, there is no financial scandal, there is frankly nothing that would require the public disclosure of such contracts. I highly recommend you drop this issue, it will get you nowhere.

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

[DCA Fan]

Originally Posted by Covey41

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

No, because every year you're supposed to build an entirely new robot. They would assume, thus, that you would be in need of a new set of controls. I'd recommend you look at the market retail prices of all the parts given to you in the kit, and compare it to how much we paid. I'm sure you'll see how much of a value it is for FIRST to have all these partnerships with companies like IFI and AndyMark whose main purpose is to provide FIRST teams with affordable solutions to parts. Not many companies are willing to devote a majority of resources to a program that doesn't directly help them in the short or long term.

25%-50% going to IFI? Think about things before you say them, again. Look at all of the things FIRST has to do just to get the program started every year. It's not cheap.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Covey41

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

I hope you don't mind my asking, but have you asked FIRST to post it somewhere? And before you do, I hope you ask what business is it of yours.

Originally Posted by Covey41

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

Not even close to 50%. Consider: You pay $6K for registration (KOP and 1 regional). Second regional (and any regionals thereafter) is $4K. So, you pay $2K for the KOP. IFI provides just about that much in the control system. Then factor in the motors, software, pneumatics, and kitbot frame. That kit is probably worth about $5K if charged at full price, maybe more. Oh, and the reason we need a new RC and OI every year is that it makes it easier on everybody except IFI. We don't have to have the rookie kits set aside, provision is made for any updates to the controller, and you're covered in case you blow the controller.

And, I personally think the IFI guys are underappreciated. I worked Spare Parts at the LA regional and two to three times a day I had to go out to the field and find the IFI rep so he could talk to a teamabout a problem or to get his approval for a loaner part. I never heard him complain, and he was busy the entire event maonitoring the field. IFI also provides loaner control systems with the rule that if you don't return it, you pay for it. They put in probably more, if not more valuable, work than anyone else in FIRST, at least at the competition level, with the possible exception of the field managers and event planners.

[dez250]

FYI the 2005 FRC KOP had a retail value of over $16,000. For $2k i would not be complaining what's in the Kit.

P.S.~ I would be very wary of what you say, as many suppliers and supporters of FIRST read these boards. We wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds us now, would we?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by dez250

FYI the 2005 FRC KOP had a retail value of over $16,000. For $2k i would not be complaining what's in the Kit.

All I can say is: Boy, I underestimated when I gave a guesstimated value. And I'm sure not going to complain, primarily because it only fails when someone does something stupid like not taking good care of it.

[MikeDubreuil]

Can we not bash Covey41 for wanting to see the contracts. Much of FIRST's financial workings are kept secret. This is not to say that FIRST does not have our best interests in heart; however, I do know that most would find it shocking what their money goes or does not go toward.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Can we not bash Covey41 for wanting to see the contracts. Much of FIRST's financial workings are kept secret. This is not to say that FIRST does not have our best interests in heart; however, I do know that most would find it shocking what their money goes or does not go toward.

http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=78

You want answers, you found them.

[Arefin Bari]

I would think that FIRSTers would be very gracious with the support they get from FIRST and every single company that are affiliated with them.

It is true that teams have to come up with a lot of money in order to stay alive every year but has anyone ever sat down and calculated the amount of money that is needed to do something like this? Speaking from personal experience, in order to run a two day offseaon competiion in a way smaller venue, with a lot less resources you need good amount of money, persay ten thousand to twenty thousand dollars. Those money adds up very quickly.

Lets see... we got many colleges that offers scholarship to kids. Has anyone added that money up and see how much that is?

Let's take AndyMark.biz as an example. Their transmission are being sold at $330. I know a team in Florida who is making their own tranmission. Without any labor, each transmission parts come out to be $300. Has anyone tried to go out and make a custom transmission with out having the experience. I bet the cost of each transmission would come out to over $500 bucks a piece (including labor).

As far as IFI goes, I have never seen one of those guys back off when my team needed help whether it was at a competition or during build season. Stop by to one of those guys and ask them questions you have. They will sit there and talk to you, needless to say if you send one of your student to John and say "I don't know how to design a transmission, can you teach me?" John would probably whip out his dictionary and start teaching right there. As it has been pointed out before in this thread, IFI isn't given enough credits for what they do for this program. As Mr. Kressly said earlier in this thread... "Take care of what you have."

Your students learn and that's whats valuable to every single one of us. While working with them, we learn too. Where will you find a place in this nation where your students will have one on one conversation with a real engineer and go through a design process?

Team 1345 thanks every single business that is affiliated with this program and for letting us be a part of it.