Would you pick a yellow-carded team for playoffs?

[MajorHamlet]

hmm...i would personally choose the good yellow card team since that could indicate that the team gives vigorous effots during the game.

Depends on the situation, but generally, probably the good team

[verbal abuse166]

I am a HUGE fan of gracious professionalism. I always brag to my friends here (lacking a first team but trying to start one... next year...) that first is like a football match.... only rather than people beating each other up they’re sharing ideas and making friends.... but on the field.... its competitive (often times I may add that its robots beating each other up, then backtrack and say but its really bad to do that, you should in no way injure someone else’s robot because that’s.... mean ... for lack of a better word, and not gracious professional… but that’s intentional damage… My worry is that some matches may loose their full potential excitement because of the yellow card rule. The thought that came to mind is what exactly is considered "aggressive behavior"? Have seen some incredibly exciting matches where there will be an incredibly aggressive defense... how many robots last year fell over due to that ramp thing.... and it added excitement. Don’t get me wrong though I know quite well FIRST IS NOT BATTLE BOTS... ITS COOLER!!!! But as a soon to be rookie team, will pushing harshly… playing a powerhouse defense get you a yellow card, what if they get pushed into a corner and you pin them for a bit (not the whole game.) or in pushing you get pinned somehow… though it’s a bit harder to do that in this challenge than last year… I saw many a bot get stuck in that 1-point goal corner. I don’t like too much aggression like purposefully pushing down a robot…. But would an accidentally causing the robot to fall turn into “aggressive defense” … course…. What is “accidental” will exciting push matches be lost… and what will rookie teams that can only build a pusher do? Just ideas … and I do like the rule…

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

1625 got a yellow card at IRI 2006 (IRI has used them at least since 2004, when I first attended) during the qualification matches. 71 picked them to join their 5th seeded alliance.

In the end it worked out for them, but I wonder if the real question is "Would they have been picked by a higher-seeded alliance otherwise?" Of course we can't know the answer to that.

[Ricky Q.]

In 2004, 71 seeded #1 at IRI and 980 seeded #2. 980 had a yellow card from qualifying, but was picked by #71. We joined the alliance as the 3rd team and ended up winning after some hard fought matches, including winning one where an opposing team who had a previous yellow card was called on it again and automatically DQ'd.

After IRI that year there was a discussion on here about the card system, and I wrote:

Originally Posted by Ricky Q.

Yellow cards made drivers and coaches more aware of their robot and their actions on the field. Duing one of our strategy planning talks before he finals Team 980's coach said, "Remember we have a yellow card, don't do anything stupid", to their drivers and they were careful not to bring out that Red card.

And John VN replied with a statement that I strongly agree with:

Originally Posted by JVN

I think this single statement, more than any other, proves that this system has it's desired effect.

-John

I think it wouldn't be so bad a thing if cards carried to eliminations. Food for thought.

[Nawaid Ladak]

here is my opinion on the card system

it's great for the qualifying matches. but PLEASE, don't use them for the Elimination rounds

thats the only thing i really don't like.

Whats more exciting than watching two robots going at it in a aggressive pushing match go get posission for a spoiler with 30 seconds left in the match. in finals 1:3 of the nationals where both teams get a red card.

This rule will really rui some teams that are known for playing aggressive,

thats besides the point, anyways, i would pick the yellow card team because i know that they are willing to push people around, and that they CAN do it if need be.

Offence brings the crowds, but defense wins championships

it seems that FIRST is nibbleing off the defense aspect of the games lately. (ie: no wedges last year, and a card system this year. im not saying FIRST is doing anything wrong, im just saying that the game might not be as exciting to watch as it used to be in the final matches.)

[ThomasP]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

here is my opinion on the card system

it's great for the qualifying matches. but PLEASE, don't use them for the Elimination rounds

thats the only thing i really don't like.

Whats more exciting than watching two robots going at it in a aggressive pushing match go get posission for a spoiler with 30 seconds left in the match. in finals 1:3 of the nationals where both teams get a red card.

This rule will really rui some teams that are known for playing aggressive,

thats besides the point, anyways, i would pick the yellow card team because i know that they are willing to push people around, and that they CAN do it if need be.

Offence brings the crowds, but defense wins championships

it seems that FIRST is nibbleing off the defense aspect of the games lately. (ie: no wedges last year, and a card system this year. im not saying FIRST is doing anything wrong, im just saying that the game might not be as exciting to watch as it used to be in the final matches.)

There's a difference between being defensive and being overly aggressive, this isn't battlebots .

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

1625 got a yellow card at IRI 2006 (IRI has used them at least since 2004, when I first attended) during the qualification matches. 71 picked them to join their 5th seeded alliance. That alliance went on to win IRI.
Also, I believe that yellow cards carried over between qualification and elimination matches at IRI, and they don't during official FIRST events, which would make a yellow card team more appealing.
If a team has received one (or more) red cards, it may be a different situation.

As a driver at IRI i don't recall having ever received a yellow card or physically having a drivetrain capable of being agressive enough(we had 2 cims at 8fps)
our robot couldn't push a kiwi drive let alone be agressively driven. plus our strategy was pure offense.

just a correction for the reputation of my team

aren

[Andy Grady]

I think that the card system does nothing more than give a visual indication of things already practiced. It will make the offending teams more paranoid yes, but I would guess that the yellow card system will be used about as much as warning a team of overagressiveness in the past.

In previous years, you would always be weary of teams who you knew were a danger to get DQed in a round. But one stray warning woudln't really make much of a difference.

In other words...a yellow card on a team wouldn't stop me from selecting them at all. If a team has been red carded...well, now we are talking about a possible problem.

I do applaud the yellow/red card system and FIRST's effort to clarify rules on hitting and wedge bots this year. Now maybe there will not be such a grey area.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Gear

As a driver at IRI i don't recall having ever received a yellow card or physically having a drivetrain capable of being agressive enough(we had 2 cims at 8fps)
our robot couldn't push a kiwi drive let alone be agressively driven. plus our strategy was pure offense.

just a correction for the reputation of my team

aren

The yellow card was given to both 1625 and 234 after a Qualifying match. 116 had lined up a defensive block against 234 and a pushing match began. 1625 came in behind 234, and added your pushing power to the fray (as you either couldn't, or didn't feel comfortable shooting over 234).
(116 is behind 910 in this picture)

This lasted for a few seconds, before 234 somehow managed to get underneath 116's wheels, and when driving forward, caused 116 to tip backwards.


While this call was certainly borderline (even I felt so, as 116's coach), especially for 1625, both 234 and 1625 did receive yellow cards.

[Aren_Hill]

if we received a yellow card shouldn't we be notified? in some way shape or form? plus as a driver this year i either planted our foot and sat there or ran away our strategy has never had pushing involved. plus the only reason we'd have been behind 234 is if there was balls to be collected or setting up to shoot

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Gear

if we received a yellow card shouldn't we be notified? in some way shape or form? plus as a driver this year i either planted our foot and sat there or ran away our strategy has never had pushing involved. plus the only reason we'd have been behind 234 is if there was balls to be collected or setting up to shoot

It was announced over the PA after the match ended. You may have been setting up to shoot, and as you can see in the picture, you opened fire as we tipped. Perhaps until we tipped, you had been out of range? (after you joined, and until 116 tipped, the 3 robots basically didn't move at all, the pushing power was that close)

[Aren_Hill]

our shooting range was easily that distance and its a good bet we were setting up to shoot. which may have just been misunderstood as us pushing. which the only time we tried to push was when we were stuck in a corner (if you want an unsuccessful attempt example check this match we were in the corner the entire time (http://www.soap.circuitrunners.com/2006/movies/galileo/ match 17)
and if you notice were still in the same spot

[Ricky Q.]

Lets keep this to discussion of this year's card system, keep the IRI events in PM's or IM's. Thanks.