Section 8.3.3 Illegal Gearboxes and Chassis

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

We should nominate someone from this thread to ask these questions ... 10 different people asking 30+ different questions might not work as well.

I nominate Tristan.

[Paul Copioli]

Here is the question I posted to the Q&A forums although it has not shown up yet:

My question is regarding Robot Rule R24 and how it applies given all the other rules in Section 8.3. I will first ask my question, then go into detail why I am confused regarding the rule and how it interacts with the other rules.

We want to use a machined aluminum gearbox housing that was designed and fabricated during the 2005 build season and used on our 2005 robot. We have not modified it since the 2005 season. According to rules R24 and R26, we should be able to use this component on our 2007 robot. Is this interpretation correct?

The part that has us confused is the last part of the rule which states "... IF they satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition."

What sections, exactly, contain the rules regarding materials/parts use? Is it section 8.3.4 only? Is it all of 8.3?

Robot Rule R17 seems to be in direct contradiction to R24. The 4th sentence of rule R17 states, "But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final robot is permitted prior to the Kickoff presentation"

R24 reads, "<R24> Individual COMPONENTS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions may be used on 2007 ROBOTS IF they satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition. "

The definition of COMPONENT is, "A ROBOT part in its most basic configuration, which can not be disassembled without damaging or destroying the part, or altering its fundamental function."

Based on R24 and the definition of a COMPONENT, then my 2005 housing is legal, but based on R17 it is not. Please clarify.

Thanks,
Team 217

However, Tristan brings up a very good point regarding Rule R48. According to that, as it stand right now my gearbox housing is illegal to use. So, those of you worried about inspecting my team's robot; have no fear. Unless we hear concretely otherwise, we will design a new housing for our drive gearbox and use all new parts purchased / designed / fabricated after the start of Kickoff.

With that said, then why have rule R24? Commercial off the shelf components are covered every other place in the manual so why this special rule? It makes abosolutely no sense!.

[clydefrog88]

what about mechanisms from previous seasons that were developed but not used

[gabrielse]

The Lab Rats (Team 1748) had to purchase AndyMark transmissions before kickoff because if we waited to order them through the Baltimore City School System we wouldn't get them until after build season.

We only opened the box with our AndyMark transmissions
on the ninth (after kickoff). We are a second year team in Baltimore City. We can't afford to buy another set of transmissions identical to what we just opened in order to say we purchased them after kickoff.

It seems like we met the intent of the rules and are getting caught up in legalities. I'm hoping that FIRST will allow us to use the transmissions we purchased but did not open until after the kickoff.

My students want to finish designing our drivetrain and they need to know what they can use.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by gabrielse

The Lab Rats (Team 1748) had to purchase AndyMark transmissions before kickoff because if we waited to order them through the Baltimore City School System we wouldn't get them until after build season.

We only opened the box with our AndyMark transmissions
on the ninth (after kickoff). We are a second year team in Baltimore City. We can't afford to buy another set of transmissions identical to what we just opened in order to say we purchased them after kickoff.

It seems like we met the intent of the rules and are getting caught up in legalities. I'm hoping that FIRST will allow us to use the transmissions we purchased but did not open until after the kickoff.

My students want to finish designing our drivetrain and they need to know what they can use.

that is a tough spot to be in. I sympathize with you in the lack of funding, which is an issue for MANY teams in FIRST. However you must look at the situation as a whole. Whats the difference between purchasing the parts a few days early, or an entire year early? Why is it acceptable for low budget teams and not acceptable for teams that have signifigant funding? FIRST cant be run with double standards. I do not like the rule at all because I feel teams, like yourselves, do not order parts early as intent to build early, but simply to make sure they come at all. Hopefully FIRST will clarify some of these rules for us. Until then good luck with build season, I'm sure your team will come out with a quality robot regardless.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

that is a tough spot to be in. I sympathize with you in the lack of funding, which is an issue for MANY teams in FIRST. However you must look at the situation as a whole. Whats the difference between purchasing the parts a few days early, or an entire year early? Why is it acceptable for low budget teams and not acceptable for teams that have signifigant funding? FIRST cant be run with double standards. I do not like the rule at all because I feel teams, like yourselves, do not order parts early as intent to build early, but simply to make sure they come at all. Hopefully FIRST will clarify some of these rules for us. Until then good luck with build season, I'm sure your team will come out with a quality robot regardless.

Brandon, perhaps you have not worked inside the wonderfully strangling red tape of a school system. If you had read the post, he noted that if they had waited to order them until during the build season, they would have arrived well after the build season. Ordering something as expensive as 2 AM trannies takes ATLEAST 4 weeks to make it through the procurement bureaucracy and get a check cut, and then the check still has to get to AM and the trannies have to get back to the team. Any team that is funded by a school or runs their funds through a school has to deal with this, so FIRST is basically telling these teams that they have to stick with the kitbot and whatever they can make on their own in whatever machine shop they may or may not have. In other words, FIRST is telling these teams to not even bother thinking about doing interesting things and taking on the harder engineering challenges.

FIRST says they want a team in every school funded by the states. If they're serious about that, they need to get their heads out of the clouds and look at how their policies and rules actually affect these minimally funded school teams. As it is, it seems they've drafted their rules to force teams to spend all their time hunting sponsors before they can do any actually interesting engineering.

At the very LEAST, FIRST could have warned teams, OFFICIALLY, that mechanisms bought preseason would be disallowed. Despite Dave being high up there, no one is going to take his vague warnings on CD as seriously as an Email Blast from FIRST. This wouldn't have affected the game a single bit and would've given time for debate and consideration prior to it becoming an actual issue.

[Andrew Blair]

Indeed. I believe that too often, we follow the ltter, rather than the spirit of the rule. If the intent is to disallow teams from stockpiling or otherwise gaining a leg up on other teams, then it may not be applied to this school. They did not even open the boxes until the 9th, well after kickoff. Let's not restrict such a team because they traded funds a little earlier.

[Doug G]

We need a ruling from FIRST on this issue SOON. My robotics class, and hence team, became an ROP class this year and I was given an opportunity to buy lots of stuff last Oct. I bought mostly tools and such, but I also thought it'd be good to stock up on COTS items such as raw materials, Victors, and yes some different type of wheels. I felt safe that no matter what the game was, we'd need some wheels. Are wheels a mechanism or a component? The IFI wheels come in pieces and can be interpreted an MECHANISM, correct? And now I can't use them and I have to use the kit wheels?

We bought AM shifters for last year's competition, especially since last year's rule noted that items from previous competitions could be re-used if they're still COTS items. While I don't think we have to have them for this year's competition, we'd like to. We cannot afford to purchase them a second time. But another team in our situation may have more money and they can purchase them. Another rule that seems to favor the financially well off teams and hinder us public school folks that are making the expensive FIRST program work in creative ways. Perhaps I should be more creative in how I interpret the rules.

[Paul Copioli]

Here is the answer to my question I posted earlier in this thread. I asked the question exactly as written in this thread:

Under Rule <R24> (as amended in Update #2), the use of FABRICATED ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions can not be used. Hence, this part would not be permitted.

At least I feel a little better that they agreed it was unclear. Now it is crystal clear and we will abide by the rules as written.

[falconmaster]

Here is a question no one has asked.....
Is AndyMark able to be in business 6 weeks out of a year?

I am also confused about the definition about the AM shifters 2005, they could be both a COTS and a MECHANISM alone and the Forum had the ruling that it is a COTS MECHANISM. So if we purchased them before the kick-off they are illegal? I would like to hear an official, in plain english say something like- AM Shifters purchased before the kick-off are legal (or not legal) - rather than everyone manipulating the definitions. Please HELP STOP THE LAWYERING and answer the question! Thanks!

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by falconmaster

Here is a question no one has asked.....
Is AndyMark able to be in business 6 weeks out of a year?

I am also confused about the definition about the AM shifters 2005, they could be both a COTS and a MECHANISM alone and the Forum had the ruling that it is a COTS MECHANISM. So if we purchased them before the kick-off they are illegal? I would like to hear an official, in plain english say something like- AM Shifters purchased before the kick-off are legal (or not legal) - rather than everyone manipulating the definitions. Please HELP STOP THE LAWYERING and answer the question! Thanks!

Read the FIRST Q&A.

Originally Posted by dlavery

Read the FIRST Q&A.

I hate to be the one to point this out... And I'm probably going to get neg-repped for this, but I really don't care too much about dots... It would be easier for all of us if a simple "yes" or "no" were typed, and would save time for all parties involved. The time it takes to go to the Q&A, and to find the answer could simply be spared by typing a "yes, they're allowed" or "no, they're not." It also would save the poster some time by them having to type less characters.

I do understand that it was posted a some days ago, but for future reference, if you know the answer, save yourself and us precious time by posting the answer.

[dlavery]

At the time the original question was posted to this thread, a total of 22 questions had been answered on the FIRST Q&A system. The answer had been provided as the sixth question to be answered. I do not think it is unreasonable to let someone know that a clearly-marked answer can be found by referring to a short 22-line list of titles. The only reason that the response did not take a more precise form like "the answer has been posted in section xxx of the FIRST Q&A" is that at the time the Q&A list was so short that a section pointer was unnecessary.

In addition, the requestor had specifically asked for an official answer. Official answers are not available on CD - they are only available from FIRST via the Q&A system. So suggesting they check the FIRST Q&A system for the answer to their question is not only appropriate, it is directly responsive to what they had asked for in the first place.

That said, I will disagree with your sentiment that we are here to just spoon feed answers to every question. With that sort of an approach, the requestors will never learn about the resources that are already available to them, and with which they should be familiar. Detailed technical questions are one area where basic information may be necessary. However, particularly in the case of questions about rules, responses that point to complete, official answers are much more appropriate than having anyone here provide a paraphrased, intermediate recitation that may be incorrect.

Furthermore, doing so avoids all manner of misinterpretation and indeterminate lawyering discussions such as those that have erupted here lately. And avoiding those situations saves all of us ever so much more of the precious time that is apparently so important.

-dave

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by gabrielse

The Lab Rats (Team 1748) had to purchase AndyMark transmissions before kickoff because if we waited to order them through the Baltimore City School System we wouldn't get them until after build season.

We only opened the box with our AndyMark transmissions
on the ninth (after kickoff). We are a second year team in Baltimore City. We can't afford to buy another set of transmissions identical to what we just opened in order to say we purchased them after kickoff.

It seems like we met the intent of the rules and are getting caught up in legalities. I'm hoping that FIRST will allow us to use the transmissions we purchased but did not open until after the kickoff.

My students want to finish designing our drivetrain and they need to know what they can use.

AndyMark products are COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) items. AndyMark meets FIRST's definition of a vendor and their products are available to all teams in a reasonable period. I suppose if there was a run on one or two components they might get backlogged but that is allowed for in the rule too. Purchase of COTS items before Kickoff is allowed and, in the case of raw stock, encouraged. Since you just opened the box it obviously was not modified before Kickoff. If you had so much as drilled a single hole before Kickoff then it would be a "custom fabricated" part and therefore illegal.

You took something of a risk in purchasing before Kickoff. They could have switched to VEX type parts or some other motors completely unsuitable and you would have been stuck, but fortunately for us all this is not the case.

There is the question of whether or not this is a "pre-designed solution". Since you are making your own choices as to wheel size, gearing etc. I'd say it is not. The AM gearbox could be used to power an arm or robot lifter in addition to a drive system so it is generic enough in my mind that this is not a concern.

So turn your guys loose.

[Hieb]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

AndyMark products are COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) items. AndyMark meets FIRST's definition of a vendor and their products are available to all teams in a reasonable period. I suppose if there was a run on one or two components they might get backlogged but that is allowed for in the rule too. Purchase of COTS items before Kickoff is allowed and, in the case of raw stock, encouraged. Since you just opened the box it obviously was not modified before Kickoff. If you had so much as drilled a single hole before Kickoff then it would be a "custom fabricated" part and therefore illegal.

Unfortunately, I think you also have to look at whether the part is a COMPONENT or a MECHANISM. I think these would fit in to the category of mechanism, which from my reading must be purchased within the time frame of the build period.

I tried posting a question about a similar situation to the Q&A, but I don't seem to be having much luck with the Q&A fora this year. Hopefully we can get a ruling quickly so the design process can continue.