Need Clarification of cost of additional Components rules

[Japper]

I am a little unclear about the use of custom parts and would appreciate it
if anyone can help me to understand the rules on the following:

I understand that the total limit of additional parts used must be less than
$3500 and if I understand it correctly, any one part used must be worth
$400 or less. Is this a correct understanding of the 2007 rules so far?

In the scenario where I were to accept a donation of an assembly that is
offered by a company and it is typically sells for $600 and is available
to anyone who wanted to buy it at that price, is it true that this part
would be not allowed because it costs mors than $400 to purchase it?

Is this value based upon the selling price of the assembly or the
cost of materials that go into the assembly?

If we were to customize the assembly or only use a portion of this
assembly, are we limited to using any one piece worth less than $400?
How would we determine this value?

If we were to take the above assembly and only use 1/4 of it, so that we
are effectively only using $150 of the value of the donated item, can we
report this as a $150 part?

Can we value the above portion of the assembly as the value of the individual components
of this assembly if we buy it that way?

One last question... What do we need to log and show to the judges regarding additional parts
used, do we need manufacturer name & contact info, part number, cost
basis, and / or what else?

Thanks!

[Ben Piecuch]

It is my understanding (and therefore not an official answer) that if the COTS assembly, in its most basic form costs over $400, then it is not allowed. Even though you may be using a portion of it, you would still have to purchase the entire assembly at the full price.

As far as the price goes, you would have to account for it as the retail price, or the price that everyone else would pay for it. If everyone else could purchase it for only the material costs, then you could account for it as so.

At the competitions, you will need to have a complete Bill of Materials (BOM) to show the inspectors. I've heard that they may be requiring you to submit that BOM, and not just show it (as we have in past years.) The BOM will require a component description, P/N, cost, and quantity. You do not need to show suppliers, vendors, addresses, etc...

If the group here can't help you resolve this, be sure to ask the Q&A forums.

BEN

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Japper

I understand that the total limit of additional parts used must be less than
$3500 and if I understand it correctly, any one part used must be worth
$400 or less. Is this a correct understanding of the 2007 rules so far?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Japper

In the scenario where I were to accept a donation of an assembly that is
offered by a company and it is typically sells for $600 and is available
to anyone who wanted to buy it at that price, is it true that this part
would be not allowed because it costs mors than $400 to purchase it?

Is this value based upon the selling price of the assembly or the
cost of materials that go into the assembly?

Cost determination relies upon the fair market price (often the MSRP) of the COTS part or assembly. It would therefore be illegal. You cannot rely upon the cost of materials alone—the manufacturer's costs and profit must be included.

Originally Posted by Japper

If we were to customize the assembly or only use a portion of this
assembly, are we limited to using any one piece worth less than $400?
How would we determine this value?

If we were to take the above assembly and only use 1/4 of it, so that we
are effectively only using $150 of the value of the donated item, can we
report this as a $150 part?

If that assembly is available to the public in the same parts, you could acquire the desired part alone. If it is only sold as a whole, you may not prorate it. (Prorating only applies to bulk materials.)

Originally Posted by Japper

Can we value the above portion of the assembly as the value of the individual components
of this assembly if we buy it that way?

If this same configuration is purchasable by a member of the public, you may.

Originally Posted by Japper

One last question... What do we need to log and show to the judges regarding additional parts
used, do we need manufacturer name & contact info, part number, cost
basis, and / or what else?

You need to provide a bill of materials that uniquely identifies the non-KOP parts/assemblies used, and provides their costs and quantities. You may provide more information if you desire, bearing in mind that in case of a dispute, the team bears the burden of proof to show that a part is legal. Also, it is a very good idea to bring several copies of your BOM, because inspectors will often like to keep a copy for their records.

[Japper]

Thanks for the reply....

If I were to get a copy of the BOM of the assembly and price this out individually and then build it myself per those parts rather than use the donated assembly, I could then cost this per the individual material costs couldn't I?

This would in effect be building it from scratch, which I am not opposed to doing as I would have to customize it anyway...

Another catch in the rules that I am not sure of is, I might want to buy metal from a local supplier and they may or may not offer material like this via mail order, so these materials would not be necessarily available to anyone, anywhere in the country. How do other teams deal with this, do they only buy metal and nuts and bolts from a catalog sales entity? Or is this not an issue?

What about parts that we as a team fabricate from raw goods, obviously we need to keep track of material costs but do we need to only account for labor charges if someone other than a mentor or member of the team performs the work?

Please advise and Thanks again!

[Japper]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

You need to provide a bill of materials that uniquely identifies the non-KOP parts/assemblies used, and provides their costs and quantities. You may provide more information if you desire, bearing in mind that in case of a dispute, the team bears the burden of proof to show that a part is legal. Also, it is a very good idea to bring several copies of your BOM, because inspectors will often like to keep a copy for their records.

Do we need to show receipts of all material purchased also?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

If that assembly is available to the public in the same parts, you could acquire the desired part alone. If it is only sold as a whole, you may not prorate it. (Prorating only applies to bulk materials.)

Tristan.... I actually think this applies to anything you buy in large quantities. Like ball bearings, for example. If you get a volume discount on these, you can use that price. Though as with aluminum, if you had to buy 25 bearings and you only used 5, you can't use the price for 25. I imagine this would even apply to assemblies/mechanisms if there was something like that that you needed a lot of and had a bulk discount. That paragraph of the rules says it applies to items purchased in bulk OR in large quantities, after all.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Japper

Do we need to show receipts of all material purchased also?

No. Keeping them will be helpful to you for keeping track, and you might want them for any particularly expensive items that are toeing the $400 line, but mostly you're on your honor. This is simply a practical consideration, as if you use many donated parts, you'll only have stated priced for those instead of reciepts anyways.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Japper

I am a little unclear about the use of custom parts and would appreciate it
if anyone can help me to understand the rules on the following:

I understand that the total limit of additional parts used must be less than
$3500 and if I understand it correctly, any one part used must be worth
$400 or less. Is this a correct understanding of the 2007 rules so far?

Yes

Originally Posted by Japper

In the scenario where I were to accept a donation of an assembly that is
offered by a company and it is typically sells for $600 and is available
to anyone who wanted to buy it at that price, is it true that this part
would be not allowed because it costs mors than $400 to purchase it?

Yes

Originally Posted by Japper

Is this value based upon the selling price of the assembly or the cost of materials that go into the assembly?

Cost for purchased items is based on the selling price. However if the part is produced by a sponsor or team member then the cost could be based on the raw materials.

Originally Posted by Japper

If we were to customize the assembly or only use a portion of this
assembly, are we limited to using any one piece worth less than $400?
How would we determine this value?

You need to base your cost on the minimum a member of the public would have to pay to get the equivalent item. So if you are scavenging a carpet sweeper, you would have to account for the cost of the complete sweeper.

Originally Posted by Japper

If we were to take the above assembly and only use 1/4 of it, so that we
are effectively only using $150 of the value of the donated item, can we
report this as a $150 part?

No

Originally Posted by Japper

Can we value the above portion of the assembly as the value of the individual components of this assembly if we buy it that way?

Yes, for example if you were using something that can be purchased seperately as a repair part, you could use it based on the spare part price. In the carpet sweeper example above, if you just wanted the roller assembly and you could get it separately, then you could use the cost for just the assembly.

Originally Posted by Japper

One last question... What do we need to log and show to the judges regarding additional parts used, do we need manufacturer name & contact info, part number, cost basis, and / or what else?

Thanks!

At a minimum you want an item description, the amount purchased, the cost of the item, and a total cost. If there might be a question about the usability of the part, then you might want to include a reference to the rule(s) you feel makes it OK to use.

My team creates a parts data base in Excell. The data base includes information about which subsystem it is part of, how much the part weighs, and what the source was. During Build we use it mostly to keep track of the robot weight and projected weight. But when we reach a competition we just have to blank out everything except the cost and part description and print it out.

[kawelch]

Here is how I explain accounting to new teams... First you must realize that this is FIRST accounting and it will bear little resemblence to the true accounting books your team keeps...Now, how to record amounts...

Assume you just won the award "Greatest bot EVER built" FIRST wants to immortalize it in New Hampshire but does not want to take your bot. They will need to build an exact replica but they will not accept donated parts or buy in bulk. What would the minimum cost be to reproduce your bot.

Example 1. A donated piece must be purchased for retail.
Ex 2. Even though you bought it for $10 a gross, you only used two... and they sell for $2 a piece, then it costs $4.
Ex 3. It was used unmodified last year, we can use it again this year (pending current rules) but we must pay the same price again...nothing depreciates.

I think this covers most of your questions.