2007 Kit

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Dave and GNH200 (whoever that is),

But why the rule exluding the purchase of the Exide (or Yuasa battery)? You can say fairness, but that is a pretty weak argument since everyone can purchase those batteries.

Please do not even touch the "small teams can't afford it". They can afford to travel to a regional, they can afford the $7,000 entry fee. The extra $50 to buy two batteries is noise.

-PAul

That's a double edged sword you're swingin' there. The existing teams can also afford to buy a couple new MK batteries, etc.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Dave and GNH200 (whoever that is),

But why the rule exluding the purchase of the Exide (or Yuasa battery)? You can say fairness, but that is a pretty weak argument since everyone can purchase those batteries.

Please do not even touch the "small teams can't afford it". They can afford to travel to a regional, they can afford the $7,000 entry fee. The extra $50 to buy two batteries is noise.

-PAul

I don't see any rule that prohibits anyone from purchasing Exide, or Yuasa, or any other battery. FIRST has said nothing that would prevent you from buying all of them that you want.

The only thing that they have said is that for the official competitions, you can only USE the approved make and model of battery that is supplied in the Kit Of Parts. This is precisely analogous to what they specify for the motors used in the competition - you can use only the approved make and model of motor, in the quantities specified, on your robot during the competitions. You can purchase all you want for development and as spares. You can do anything you want for prototyping. But you can't use any alternate motors on the robot during competition. If the motor in this year's kit is different than the motor in last year's kit, you can't use last year's motor. The batteries are being handled in exactly the same way.

And for those that are whining "but I bought a whole bunch of extra batteries last year and want to use them again" I will just point out once again that FIRST and many others have repeatedly cautioned against purchasing anything in advance of the kickoff in anticipation of using it on the 2007 robots. Messages like the one below have been repeated here and elsewhere many, many times. If you chose to ignore that advice, you do so at your own peril.

Let me just take this opportunity to repeat an earlier comment. I would strongly recommend that teams do not go out on any big spending sprees, purchasing lots of mechanisms, stockpiling stuff in anticipation of some expected use in their 2007 robots. Wait until after kick-off and until you know the challenge, constraints, and limitations that may be included in the rules. Teams do not yet know what may be included in the 2007 rules that may constrain sources for additional (non-KOP) parts, limit purchased components to a given level of complexity, restrict the cost or size of additional elements, proscribe the permissibility of pre-ordering parts and components, or define the timing under which materials for the competition robots may be purchased. It would be a shame if a team were to commit a significant portion of a limited budget on a component pre-ordered before the 2007 kick-off, only to find once they read the rules that the component was not permitted in the 2007 FRC competition.

Just a word to the wise...

-dave

[Sean Schuff]

I don't know all the technical specifications of these batteries but I'm betting that the collective brainpower of FIRST mentors on this forum will come to logical conclusions regarding their compatability. For us it breaks down like this. A team gets two batteries in the kit and maybe buys two more during the build so they have enough to make it safely through a day of competitions. After three or four years they have built up an inventory of 12 - 16 batteries, maybe a few less if they just accept the two batteries in the kit each year. Hypothetically, let us say the team develops a sophisticated charging station that can accomodate maybe 15 batteries. The team is by no means in financial peril but is stretching it's budget to impact as many kids as they can. They are working on the assumption that FIRST will use the same batteries and they won't need to make a significant investment in new batteries but will be able to recondition and reuse old batteries. Maybe they will even provide them for use to rookie teams at the comps who may have thought that two batteries was enough. (I'm no engineer but my guess is it is better to have more than two batteries at a competition.) Now with the current state of affairs the team is faced with the "do we just use the two batteries we got in the kit and waste the rest of the room in the shiny new charging rack or do we buy a batch of the new batteries and run the risk that FIRST will change again next year?" question.

My guess is the bottom line in all of this is that some teams (ours included) have invested in what we thought would be a consistent component from year to year and now we're faced with the dilemma of "to replace or not to replace". Dave - I understand your comments regarding "don't assume that kit parts won't change" but it would be nice to have some input. Perhaps FIRST could have alerted teams to an impending change and allowed veteran teams to "opt out" of getting new batteries so a smaller donation of them could go towards the rookie and newer teams. I can speak for our team that it is nice to get fresh batteries each year but we've got enough of them from previous years that we could do without if it meant a newer/rookie team got them as long as the battery remained consistent.

For us it boils down to the question of "can we afford to replace our old batteries?" and "do we want to run the risk of getting burned again?" My guess is our fancy new, high-tech, one-of-a-kind, state-of-the-art charging station will be underutilized this year. Anyone want to rent space in it?

I want to believe that FIRST isn't bowing down to suppliers and I'll take Dave's word for it but it would have been nice to have had a heads up.

Sean

[FIRST Rocks]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I just want to verify that, as per the KoP checklist on the FIRST site, we're only supposed to have one Fisher Price motor and gearbox. We received two in our kit.

Did anyone else get two?

I was wondering about this as well. The checklist says 1, but both 494 & 70 got 2 Fisher-Prices. I think the checklist is wrong, considering that we've gotten two in the past and it seems every team got two.

[coffeybeanz]

ummm....i was wondering if anyone has been able to find somewhere to purchase the 15 tooth output sprockets...we need some more...and the places we normally order them from are not cooperating

[chris31]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Dave and GNH200 (whoever that is),

But why the rule exluding the purchase of the Exide (or Yuasa battery)? You can say fairness, but that is a pretty weak argument since everyone can purchase those batteries.

Please do not even touch the "small teams can't afford it". They can afford to travel to a regional, they can afford the $7,000 entry fee. The extra $50 to buy two batteries is noise.

-PAul

There are teams, like ours, who have a very small budget. We paid $6000 for entry and have some money for parts but not alow. We go to a local regional that we plan to drive an hour to each day to save money. So yes, there are teams who dont have alot of money.

If any veteran team has old Exide batteries we will surely take them off your hands.

-chris

[Steve W]

I am afraid that I have to agree with Dave on the battery issue. Batteries are a vital part of the robot. The ability to even the field is really important in some areas. This is no different than changing the Fisher Price motors or limiting the pneumatics. I know that our team only counts on batteries for 2 years and then they go to practice only status.

Teams have in the past planned on using the drill motors and they disappeared. the fact is we lost a sponsor or costs went too high. I remember reading of people complaining the the cost of regionals was too high yet when FIRST tries to be careful, everyone is complaining. What is it that we are asking for?

[Sidney San Martín]

Sorry to butt in (though, then again, this is the general kit thread...), but has anyone figured out that indicator lamp? The wiring diagram's up, but still no visible sign of purpose.

[synth3tk]

Hey, our team was wondering if there were any specifics as to how the battery is supposed to be placed. E.G. whether or not it is allowed to be positioned sideways or not.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by blakcheez

Hey, our team was wondering if there were any specifics as to how the battery is supposed to be placed. E.G. whether or not it is allowed to be positioned sideways or not.

Unless guidelines have changed, which is unlikely, the battery can be placed on its side or edge in the robot, but should be charged in the upright position.