Herding multiple tubes

[Hieb]

While I understand that the robot may not be in possession of multiple tubes, possession of a tube on the ground is defined as being in contact with the robot at more than a single point.

That said, what are your thoughts on grasping a ringer and using it to herd other tubes. In that way only one tube is touching the robot--other tubes would be touching the first tube.

(I know -- difficult to acheive perhaps, but just curious as to your thoughts)

[Alan Anderson]

Pushing a tube on the floor with one you are holding is definitely against the spirit of the rules, if not the letter. If I were in charge, I would proclaim that a "possessed tube" is an extension of the robot. Using one tube to herd another tube would violate the "no multiple possession" rule.

[MattB703]

In the past, FIRST has ruled that any object in the possesion of your robot becomes a part of the robot for the purposes of determining contact. (ie. you can't use a scoring piece to push high up on another robot and then claim that you wern't pushing them, you were pushing the scoring piece). I think the same ruling would be made in your example.

[Robby]

Doesn't G09 apply?

<G09> POSSESSION - ROBOTS may only have 1 (one) GAME PIECE in their POSSESSION at any time during the match. Inadvertent bulldozing of GAME PIECES while the ROBOT moves around the field is allowed. Controlled "herding" of a single GAME PIECE lying on the floor is permitted as long as no other GAME PIECE is in the POSSESSION of the ROBOT. Herding of multiple GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor while in POSSESSION of another GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be considered POSSESSION of more than one GAME PIECE).

Because aren't you in possession of one and using it to herd another tube?

[Hieb]

I agree that it is probably in violation of the spirit of the rules, and this actually isn't a strategy that has even been discussed by my team--just something that came to mind while reading one of the Q&A responses.

As far as being in possession of more than one game piece--as the definitions currently stand,

POSSESSION -- ...A GAME PIECE on the floor is considered to be in the POSSESSION of a ROBOT if it contacts the ROBOT at more than a single point.

ROBOT -- anything that has passed ROBOT inspection that a TEAM places on the field prior to the start of a match.

By those definitions, the game piece is not a part of the robot and thus pieces on the floor being pushed by another game piece would not be in the possession of the robot.

EDIT -- OK, Robby, I see your point, where herding is not dependent upon possession or its definition.

[BillP]

Yes, all of these are valid points, but I can (almost) promise you that every referee will interpret herding ringers with another ringer in your possession as possessing two ringers.

I know that I would.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by BillP

Yes, all of these are valid points, but I can (almost) promise you that every referee will interpret herding ringers with another ringer in your possession as possessing two ringers.

I know that I would.

That's why I quoted G09, herding has nothing to do with the definition of posession, and I would define what was proposed above as herding. Notice the part that I bolded.

Originally Posted by Robby

Doesn't G09 apply?

<G09> POSSESSION - ROBOTS may only have 1 (one) GAME PIECE in their POSSESSION at any time during the match. Inadvertent bulldozing of GAME PIECES while the ROBOT moves around the field is allowed. Controlled "herding" of a single GAME PIECE lying on the floor is permitted as long as no other GAME PIECE is in the POSSESSION of the ROBOT. Herding of multiple GAME PIECES, or herding of a GAME PIECE on the floor while in POSSESSION of another GAME PIECE is not permitted (as this would be considered POSSESSION of more than one GAME PIECE).

Because aren't you in possession of one and using it to herd another tube?

[Mike Betts]

All,

Please read Team Update #2. This has been resolved by FIRST.

Regards,

Mike

[Wayne Doenges]

What if you have a ramp/lift bot and you need to clear away any stray toroids before you can use your ramp/lift? Would that be considered herding if you are just getting them out of your way?

[DavidGitz]

What if you put a negative charge on the tube and your arm. Then you could push them around without touching them. lol

[Jake177]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

What if you have a ramp/lift bot and you need to clear away any stray toroids before you can use your ramp/lift? Would that be considered herding if you are just getting them out of your way?

<G09> POSSESSION - ROBOTS may only have 1 (one) GAME PIECE in their POSSESSION at any time during the match. Inadvertent bulldozing of GAME PIECES while the ROBOT moves around the field is allowed.

I think that would probably fall under "Inadvertent bulldozing".

[Hieb]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

What if you have a ramp/lift bot and you need to clear away any stray toroids before you can use your ramp/lift? Would that be considered herding if you are just getting them out of your way?

Originally Posted by Jake177

<G09> POSSESSION - ROBOTS may only have 1 (one) GAME PIECE in their POSSESSION at any time during the match. Inadvertent bulldozing of GAME PIECES while the ROBOT moves around the field is allowed.

I think that would probably fall under "Inadvertent bulldozing".

I would have to disagree. If you are trying to move them out of the way, how is that "inadvertent?" Game pieces in the home zone may be a big issue in this challenge.

[NoSkaOnTheRadio]

this makes me think of how the dynamic of gym class dodgeball changed completely when we discovered a player could deflect and incoming ball with the one in his hand!!!

i personally think the proposed strategy would be against the spirit of the rules, and i'm glad that FIRST clarified it.

i am still concerned about inner tubes being placed in the opposing alliance's home zone to mess up their end phase. i feel like this would be inefficient and underhanded, but not very difficult to achieve. would anyone seriously try it as a strategy?

[akshar]

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

What if you have a ramp/lift bot and you need to clear away any stray toroids before you can use your ramp/lift? Would that be considered herding if you are just getting them out of your way?

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1661

its clear now that if you were a ramp/lifter bot, you could clear away the area and not have to worry about the herding rule.

hoped this was helpful