Limiting teams to Nationals

[Carolyn Duncan]

If Disney expands and the price goes up it will only be for one year anyway. If they build a museum type thing for people to visit and an interactive exhibit they could recoop building expenses so the price for us would go back down. They could also have Disney visitors observing nationals if they're there. The bottom line is that Disney will profit rom us being there. Besides, how many of us don't spend any money while we're on Disney grounds? Not many, Disney has a good thing going with FIRST, they'd really fel the difference if they lost out on hosting nationals.

[Sean_330]

What about hosting two national championships? One at Disney World in FL, and one at Disneyland in CA? That way, there could still be national championships at Disney. They could determine what teams go where by geographical location or by and even/odd number system that rotates years. Anyway, that is just my opinion about how to deal with the ever-increasing number of teams. Finally, as for space at Disneyland there are dizens of hotels only across the street from both of the Disney parks in CA and there is always a lot of room at hotels only a couple of miles from Disneyland. LAX, (Los Angeles International Airport) which is only 25 miles away, has hundreds of flights a day so teams would have no trouble getting flights in providing they can get to one of the major hub airports. Anyway, that's just my humble opinion of how to deal with the crowding problem.

Sean

[Matt Leese]

I still like my idea about using multiple parks at Disney World to run different divisions and then just bring everyone back together for the final championship. That'd solve a lot of problems. And as far as FIRST not having enough staff, I think it's fairly clear to everyone that FIRST needs to hire some more people regardless of the situation at nationals. I don't think FIRST liked my idea as the moderator at the forum in NH responded with "See this pen? Shove it in my eye."

Matt

[patrickrd]

Since the team forum I have been wondering why Disney would want to limit the number of teams that go to nationals. After all, the more teams they let in, the more paying customers they have. Setting up another tent isn't a big deal for them -- they've got plenty of parking lot, and Disney likely isn't the one paying to rent the tents and big stadium... Most of that probably comes from FIRST and its sponsors.

FIRST made it clear at the team forum that Disney is the bottleneck. Disney is the reason FIRST is being pressured to set a limit.

The only reason I can think why Disney would want to limit more teams is because if they bring in any more teams, Disney simply cannot get the profits from these additional teams. After a certain number of teams come, Disney hotels fill and teams look off-property for better deals. Disney does not get this money. Their only other source of money would be with park tickets -- but the majority of FIRST teams that go off-site don't buy many tickets anyway. I'd like to believe this isn't the reason Disney is pressuring us not to bring more people, but I see no other possible reasons.

The next year is a crucial time period for FIRST and its philosophy. FIRST can stick with it's philosophy and do one of two things. They can use the 30000 people they bring to nats as leverage to pressure Disney to expand for us, or if Disney won't, then we can go somewhere else. Or, FIRST can fold to Disney, limit nationals, and exclude teams... Which the NH team forum crowd unanomously was against... and counterproductive to FIRST's philosophy.

[Carolyn Duncan]

I think putting the squezze on Disney is a good way to go. One year without nationals would cure them of anything. They may lose some money from teams staying off site but that's not as big as loseing nationals all together. My team last year didn't stay on site because of funding and lack of space. We still rode the Disney shuttles and went to the different parks. If I'm not mistaken, it was said by Disney that they would expand to meet our needs. It's time to put their money where their mouth is, it's time to build.

Having the different fields at different parks is the same as limiting nationals in the respect that interaction between teams would be limited to those on your field. For the champions of each field, it would be harder to know what you're coming up against. It would also eliminate each teams one chance to play on Einstein.This would be the same reason I would give to keep nationals from being at two different Disney parks.

All in all I think Disney is trying to test how much say they have in FIRST. If FIRST buckles now it would be disasterous in the future. I'm not pushing for FIRST to leave Disney, but if they can't accomodate us why should we waste our time with them? I'm sure other places can be found to hold nationals. I bet a NASA facility or somewhere in Texas may be good places to start.


edit

"See this pen? Shove it in my eye."

I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to mean but I'm sure it's something.

[Tom Fairchild]

Hmmm..... I don't think that Disney is testing FIRST or putting the screws on them or anything of that sort. They like having FIRST around and wouldn't want to damage that relationship. I don't think you guys realize how much they are of a sponsor as well as a host. FIRST isn't a real cash crop for them. In fact, we test their resources as is. Think about this - suppose we have 30,000 (a pretty conservative guess) people at nationals but split up the divisions to the different parks. Now tell me for the finals how exactly are you going to get all that many people to the stage to watch? And how are you going to decide which division gets to compete on the big stage?

When you get into groups as large as FIRST is, logistics get to be VERY complicated. It also tends to be an exponential problem too - with twice as many people they are four times as hard to deal with. Disney's hurting already, they're just trying to control the damage.

~Tom~

[EddieMcD]

All in all I think Disney is trying to test how much say they have in FIRST. If FIRST buckles now it would be disasterous in the future. I'm not pushing for FIRST to leave Disney, but if they can't accomodate us why should we waste our time with them? I'm sure other places can be found to hold nationals. I bet a NASA facility or somewhere in Texas may be good places to start.

Somewhere in Texas would solve the space issue, but it would lose a lot of the attraction that Disney provides.

[Mike Martus]

I know for a fact that the Pontiac Silvedome is up for sale ......cheap as the Detroit Lions want out of their lease.

I heard rumors of 4 million to take it over. Hey, thats just 1 event at Disney and its paid for.

Plenty of helicopter space.

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Mike Martus
I know for a fact that the Pontiac Silvedome is up for sale ......cheap as the Detroit Lions want out of their lease.

I heard rumors of 4 million to take it over. Hey, thats just 1 event at Disney and its paid for.

Plenty of helicopter space.

I can just imagine trying to recruit students next year by saying we're taking a trip to the lovely vacation spot of Pontiac, Michigan. I hearby demand that nationals take place someplace warm after spending winter in the snowiest city in the US.

Matt

[Madison]

Christina and I talked about this a bit last night. . .

Epcot can accomodate a growing National Championship. There's no question about it, as Epcot's parking lot is one of the largest on WDW property (if not the largest. . .I'm not sure.)

It's really just a matter of whether or not FIRST is worth Disney's effort. I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, but I'm afraid it's true. FIRST is not a blip on Disney's radar when it comes to the bottom line. You might think we bring in a lot of money, but when you consider the number of hotel rooms on Disney property (which is all that really matters to them) versus the amount occupied by FIRST'ers, it becomes insignificant. If there are 10,000 FIRST people going around, that's only a fraction of the capacity of a single theme park . . . It might be a boost for the weekend, or the month, but in the end, it's not a financial boon for Disney in any respect.

In the future, Nats will be limited only if Disney decides that it's not worth their while to bring forth the infrastructure to house a growing event. Pit and field tents are essentially free. The big costs, IMHO, are in the stadium and infrastructure (i.e. power drops). The stadium can be made a little more circular and that can house a few hundred more people. If we grow larger than that, the stadium won't suffice. Or, at the very least, it'll need to be an entire theater in the round scenario, and then the logistics of setting up the stage in the middle become a bit hairy.

Other possibilities?

Disney east coast and Disney west coast? Well, the thing is, space at Disneyland is at a premium. Since California Adventure ate up DL's parking lot, the only available pavement is the Timon Lot. All of the other lots have been replaced with the parking structure. Timon can house a competition, but it's not going to be around much longer. Once Disney management realizes that the only way to get attendance up at DCA is to add new attractions, the Timon lot will get razed.

Disney owns a plot of land a bit away from Disneyland, but it's undeveloped, and there's no infrastructure there.

Splitting up Nats in WDW?

In my opinion, it's not likely. Epcot's big. It's really, really big. People have suggested holding part of the competition in the Magic Kingdom (or nearby, in reality). The Magic Kingdom's parking lot is big, but it's also really isolated. Right now, FIRST benefits by being next to Epcot for a few reasons:

It's easy for the teams to go in and out of the park for the party or food.
It's got easy access to Walt Disney World Transportation.
It's located right near Epcot's entrance, making it possible for non-FIRST people to wander over and see what's going on.


The MK parking lot doesn't have these things. The only way to get to the MK is to take a tram to the Transportation and Ticket Center and then get on a boat or monorail. Bus transportation is available here also. But, it's a long walk to the TTC. The speedway isn't really substantial enough to house the competition, and it's usually a ghost town.

Being stuck in a parking lot in the middle of nowhere effectively means that nobody who doesn't already know about FIRST will come to see it. People might see the stadiums set up on their way to the Magic Kingdom, but little Suzie and Jimmy want to see Dumbo as quickly as possible. They don't want to wander around trying to figure out what's going on in the parking lot.

Finally, how do you handle finals? You can still hold them, and the team party, for that matter in Epcot. But, how do you get robots from the divisions at the MK over to Epcot? You sure can't put 'em on a monorail. FIRST could run shuttles, but what about tools, and machine shops and everything else? What about chaperoning the kids? It becomes very hard for a team to pick it's whole operation up and move to Epcot for some matches. . .

Oh, one other thing while I'm on it. Housing opportunities on Disney property will be much easier to find next year. . . By then, Disney's Pop Century resort ought to be up and running with an additional 5,000 hotel rooms, and it's in the same pricing bracket as the All-Star Resorts.

~ Michael, who's quite bored at work today.

[Carolyn Duncan]

Originally posted by Mike Martus
I know for a fact that the Pontiac Silvedome is up for sale ......cheap as the Detroit Lions want out of their lease.
I heard rumors of 4 million to take it over. Hey, thats just 1 event at Disney and its paid for.
Plenty of helicopter space.

Though it's not Florida and not Disney, this may be a wise move for FIRST. The staduim could be bought and used to secure a larger place later. But until then there is probly plenty of hotel space due to fans coming to see the games, as well as parking and acces to facilities. The locker rooms could be used as game rooms, shops, and other entertainment/aide facilities. When you really think about this it is a good place to have FIRST comps, even though it's not as desirable as Disney. The functionality of the site must be thought of before you get into trivial things like Disney parks. In the summer it won't be cold there and it also wont have the down poors that occur in Florida (usually daily at about 2pm). I really have a hard time with the fact that FIRST is a financial burden on Disney. We pay for most of our stuff and , if I'm not mistaken, we pay for the team pary in Epcot. I'm sure part or most of the fee we pay goes to Disney. Then again I could be way off on everything I just said.

[Shannon Maloney]

Lets see, Nats at Disney couldn’t really happen at any other time except maybe November. Holidays don’t really get in the way, I mean some do but it’s not like Easter, a holiday that gets in the way now. If Nats was at Disney in mid November, it would be MUCH cheaper than it is now. That’s defiantly the down time with more vacant rooms that could be filled with us, resulting in less teams staying off property. Either way, disney’s profit from us comes from all the souvenirs and food that guests buy, not hotels and park passes (come on, a bottle of water at a Disney park is like three bucks, can you see the huge profit???!) So, the season could start in august, even though many New England schools aren’t in session yet, the teams would have to plan ahead and start before school, just like fall sports teams. Either way, Disney is less crowded and getting hotels for all of us would be easier and there would be even more of EPCOT’s huge parking lot available (not that that is the problem anyway) Disney would have more guests spending money (more guest than they’ve had in past off seasons), and we would have more room

I know Disney has a lot of land in florida and while I did read the idea of them building a location for FIRST is really never gonna happen. Disney does have this little thing called the Wide World of Sports Complex. Now, a lot of people would say that FIRST isn’t a “true” sport like basketball and football and they’re right, it’s not. But it’s still a competitive sport. If cheerleading can be considered a sport and can have there national competition at the Wide World of Sports, why can’t we? the parking lot is working fine, so if you're gonna complain about Nats location, complain that we're not there.

I actually don’t see where all these problems are coming from. Disney is huge and has plenty of space for all of us. New hotels appear all the time (the newest addition is the Pop Century one, which is similar in design and price to the All-Star resorts were many of the teams already stay). Anyway, Disney is built for crowds and knows how to deal with them. I think putting a max on the number of teams is ridiculous. 320 teams? Come on! Yea that would make things a lot easier because it's smaller and a little less complex (why not limit the number of pounds the robots can be to 50 lbs? it would be less complex!). But FIRST is expanding and Disney can deal with it.

Everyone wants more publicity and more recognition for FIRST. Well we must be getting it because it’s defiantly getting bigger (in case you haven’t noticed) more recognition and interest result in more teams. More teams means more teams at nationals. it's that simple

so i say we stay with disney (not that what i say has anything to do with it)

later!

~~Shannon~~
**Team 250**

[Joe Ross]

Originally posted by Michael Krass
Epcot can accomodate a growing National Championship. There's no question about it, as Epcot's parking lot is one of the largest on WDW property (if not the largest. . .I'm not sure.)

Actually, I heard that Epcot's parking lot is the second largest in the world, and the largest is a parking structure.

This was quite a while ago, but it would be hard to find someplace as large as Epcot's parking lot

[Jessica Boucher]

Heres info on the Wide World of Sports Complex:


http://disney.go.com/disneymeetings/...dofsports.html

....Just mixing the water a bit


Have a good one

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Michael Krass
Christina and I talked about this a bit last night. . .

Epcot can accomodate a growing National Championship. There's no question about it, as Epcot's parking lot is one of the largest on WDW property (if not the largest. . .I'm not sure.)

It's really just a matter of whether or not FIRST is worth Disney's effort. I don't mean to sound like a pessimist, but I'm afraid it's true. FIRST is not a blip on Disney's radar when it comes to the bottom line. You might think we bring in a lot of money, but when you consider the number of hotel rooms on Disney property (which is all that really matters to them) versus the amount occupied by FIRST'ers, it becomes insignificant. If there are 10,000 FIRST people going around, that's only a fraction of the capacity of a single theme park . . . It might be a boost for the weekend, or the month, but in the end, it's not a financial boon for Disney in any respect.

In the future, Nats will be limited only if Disney decides that it's not worth their while to bring forth the infrastructure to house a growing event. Pit and field tents are essentially free. The big costs, IMHO, are in the stadium and infrastructure (i.e. power drops). The stadium can be made a little more circular and that can house a few hundred more people. If we grow larger than that, the stadium won't suffice. Or, at the very least, it'll need to be an entire theater in the round scenario, and then the logistics of setting up the stage in the middle become a bit hairy.

Other possibilities?

Disney east coast and Disney west coast? Well, the thing is, space at Disneyland is at a premium. Since California Adventure ate up DL's parking lot, the only available pavement is the Timon Lot. All of the other lots have been replaced with the parking structure. Timon can house a competition, but it's not going to be around much longer. Once Disney management realizes that the only way to get attendance up at DCA is to add new attractions, the Timon lot will get razed.

Disney owns a plot of land a bit away from Disneyland, but it's undeveloped, and there's no infrastructure there.

Splitting up Nats in WDW?

In my opinion, it's not likely. Epcot's big. It's really, really big. People have suggested holding part of the competition in the Magic Kingdom (or nearby, in reality). The Magic Kingdom's parking lot is big, but it's also really isolated. Right now, FIRST benefits by being next to Epcot for a few reasons:

It's easy for the teams to go in and out of the park for the party or food.
It's got easy access to Walt Disney World Transportation.
It's located right near Epcot's entrance, making it possible for non-FIRST people to wander over and see what's going on.


The MK parking lot doesn't have these things. The only way to get to the MK is to take a tram to the Transportation and Ticket Center and then get on a boat or monorail. Bus transportation is available here also. But, it's a long walk to the TTC. The speedway isn't really substantial enough to house the competition, and it's usually a ghost town.

Being stuck in a parking lot in the middle of nowhere effectively means that nobody who doesn't already know about FIRST will come to see it. People might see the stadiums set up on their way to the Magic Kingdom, but little Suzie and Jimmy want to see Dumbo as quickly as possible. They don't want to wander around trying to figure out what's going on in the parking lot.

Finally, how do you handle finals? You can still hold them, and the team party, for that matter in Epcot. But, how do you get robots from the divisions at the MK over to Epcot? You sure can't put 'em on a monorail. FIRST could run shuttles, but what about tools, and machine shops and everything else? What about chaperoning the kids? It becomes very hard for a team to pick it's whole operation up and move to Epcot for some matches. . .

Oh, one other thing while I'm on it. Housing opportunities on Disney property will be much easier to find next year. . . By then, Disney's Pop Century resort ought to be up and running with an additional 5,000 hotel rooms, and it's in the same pricing bracket as the All-Star Resorts.

~ Michael, who's quite bored at work today.

As far as the idea of Nationals East and West, who says that Disney has to hold them in the west? There are probably many other facitilities out there that would be willing to donate some space for a competition.

As far as multiple venues at WDW: The main issue at Epcot that I can see (despite FIRST saying there was a need to limit teams and not people) is the sheer number of people showing up for nationals. Disney may be good at crowd control but 17,000 people in a relatively small space is pushing it. You divide the arenas in half and you solve that problem. As to moving the robots and tools, etc, have Disney do it. No big problem there. As to moving teams, only move the winning alliance. Everybody else should stay put and watch on the big screen. Much easier that way. As far as drawing people already visiting from Disney, it doesn't matter because I sincerely doubt we draw all that many people. People may stop and look for a minute but that's about it. It's a fact of life and getting stuck in the Magic Kingdom parking lot wouldn't really change the matter too much.

Matt