Ramp bot vs. Arm bot

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by SSMike

Just something that I forgot to ask: For those of you that voted "Something else" on the poll, what did you mean? I would love to know...just to see what what you thought up.
Thanks!

The three teams I have/am working with are all making both bots, ramp and arm, it is quite feasible.

I am a huge supporter of playing defense, check out the elimination matches in Boston, defense was the strategy that worked best for us last year. However the fact that we won Boston it was because we were picked by the two most dominate bots, if we could shut down 1 bot on the other team they could out score the other two. The problem with playing defense is that you won’t seed well; you need to be paired with high scoring bots to win. You are much better off building a bot with a good scoring mechanism (arm) and a powerful drive train. You are not guaranteed to get picked if you are just a ramp bot. The 60 points are not guarunteed, the last two years there were pretty easy ways to score at the end of the round (in 2005 there wasn't even a ramp) and allot of matches alliances just couldn’t do it. If there are 8 bots at Rochester that can score even 2 or 3 tubes and can be an effective ramp, you can almost guarantee that a pure ramp bot won’t be picked.

If your team could use some help especially with the strategy portion of the game PM me, I am over at RPI, I don't have a car but I could get over there a couple of nights to meet with you. I talked to your mentors at the RPI/GE FLL competition

[windup zeppelin]

Well, our conclusion to this was to build a bot with an arm. To have a bot with an operable arm guarantees points for your alliance. To build a ramp bot you really are dependent on your alliance to get up on you, not fall down on their side, not be ramp bots too, and have the ability to score points without you helping offensively. SO, in my opinion it is a good idea to build an arm with as few degrees of freedom as possible and can place a tube on the spider leg in one swoop. Then, if you get your arm working smoothly with time left in the building season, build your ramp. The only pro for a ramp bot is that it can be an effective defense player

[cam1031]

In my oppion the best way to look at this is to build the robot so that it can place the ringers on the "Spider" and then after that is done and perfected you can move onto the ramp.

also building a ramp-bot make the assumptiont that your other 2 teammates will be able to score the ringers on the "Spider"

If your allience is made up of 3 robots that can score the ringers is better than a team that has 2 ramp-bots and one scorer.

perfect alliance 2 scrore-bots, 1 ramp-bot that can lift two other bots

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by cam1031

perfect alliance 2 scrore-bots, 1 ramp-bot that can lift two other bots

how about: perfect alliance 3 score-bots, one of which can lift the other two

[waialua359]

the upper echelon teams will be able to score effectively on the racks, the ramp bots, though trivial in terms of strategy to get 60 points, is only true if your two random partners can fit on your ramp. A wide bot wouldnt fit on a bot that was built with a ramp that was narrow. We cant just assume that all bots will fit on everyone else's ramps and vice versa. The only guarantee is that if you built an effective ringer scorer, you have a great chance to score a lot of points.
Last year, I assumed everyone was building a robot that would go on the ramp since that was a guarantee 25 points. That was not true. At the end of a match, if your alliance is losing, your quick decision might be to move spoilers or add on more ringers to empty positions.
I'm just saying, it all depends.
Just my .02 cents.

[Jonathan Norris]

The biggest problem with a ramp bot is the fact that you have to rely on your alliance members. I suspect that out of 10 matches (if you have the capability for the 60 points) that you would get it once. Look at the ramp last year, the only time it really got used heavily was during the elimination rounds. Always as the last minute thought, where one team usually didn't have time to get up. Now imagine your robot turning into that ramp, i really don't want a team rushing up on top of my robot to try and score some last minute points. Building a good ramp bot is not a guaranteed 60 points. Don't get me wrong it will happen, just not during the qualifiers when you need it to.

One of the greatest lessons I have learned in designing robots for FIRST games is that you have to account for one of your robots not being functional (or sometimes just useless ). If you want to be successful you have to be able to win the match almost by yourself. I don't want to count how many non-working or barely operational robots (we have been one before too ) we have played with. Not until elimination rounds of regionals or at the championship will you usually get capable working robots to play with, i just wish it was always like that...

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

Look at the ramp last year, the only time it really got used heavily was during the elimination rounds. Always as the last minute thought, where one team usually didn't have time to get up.

Hmmm... Our team made sure that getting back to the ramp in the last 15 seconds was ground into ALL of our alliance partners collective heads. It was definately premeditated. We used it all throughout competition. In most of our winning matches, three robots were up... and when they weren't, it wasn't for lack of trying.


... Maybe that was just us.



I think that a ramp bot will be an important part of any "winning" alliance.

[Joel J]

This is a different year, and a different game. Ramp bots will be useful, especially if they are driven by a good driver, capable of playing excellent defense. I am willing to bet that a ramp bot will be in 90% of the regional winning alliances.

Of course, defense is defense. Even against defenders. That is, you could easily send two of your alliance robots to the end zone for 30 bonus points, and have the third partner block the ramp bot from the opposing alliance from getting to their home zone. FIRST's rule limits access to an opponents end zone, but it doesn't prevent a complete lock out. Oh, and the pinning rule comes into effect after 10 seconds (dirty defense-- just a thought, I'm not recommending it).

The more I think about how a match will play out, the more I see the importance of making good strategic decisions. Moreso than in other years.

I think ramp bots will reign this year, especially if they can cap (even the bottom row only is still a cap), and definitely if they are good at playing defense. If they aren't apt to seeding, then they'll be selected.

I agree with someone who posted above that a capper (that handles all three rows) that can also play the end game for a 60 point bonus will probably be a force, especially if not very common. But a do-all hybrid with two cappers isn't much different from a capper with two defensive ramp bots.. why? Because of the defense. Shut down the most threatening cappers, and leave your one capper to do some work. You have two ramp bots on your alliance, did you pick well?

Maybe I'm making a strong case. But one point I'm hoping to get across is to not count out the ramp bots. Another point is that while it may be good to cap, you may not be able to come out on top, at a regional with good ramp bots, if you don't have the capability to get the 30-60 point end game bonus.

I think autonomous is important this year, but only if an alliance is good at it. Being able to place three tubes before the start of the match would be a devasting advantage. I mean, think of it, you could have a row of 5-6 within 10 seconds of the match. However, I'm not going to pay much attention to autonomous, because I have a feeling that most teams won't be able to do it, and even if there is an alliance on which all teams can cap in autonomous, how will they ensure that their robots do not crash into each other, by locking on to the same light?

Woah, and that's just a warmup.

I'm glad there are scrimmages before the season gets under way. This game is a BEAST to think about sometimes. I'm hoping the reality will be alot simpler.

[6600gt]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

One of the greatest lessons I have learned in designing robots for FIRST games is that you have to account for one of your robots not being functional (or sometimes just useless ). If you want to be successful you have to be able to win the match almost by yourself. I don't want to count how many non-working or barely operational robots (we have been one before too ) we have played with. Not until elimination rounds of regionals or at the championship will you usually get capable working robots to play with, i just wish it was always like that...

I agree. Team work is certainly important but sometimes you just have to go solo...

Ramp bots will make a difference but I think a good offense will find a way to counter

The real fact is that you are too dependent on the alliance.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

However, I'm not going to pay much attention to autonomous, because I have a feeling that most teams won't be able to do it, and even if there is an alliance on which all teams can cap in autonomous, how will they ensure that their robots do not crash into each other, by locking on to the same light?

Our programmers are working on that very problem as we speak

Having a handful of auto modes looks to be really helpful this year. For example, one could select to go either down the right side, the left side, or the center of the field, looking towards whichever direction the lights will be in those starting configurations, then driving towards the light(s) after going straight for a while, then turn in and hang your keeper on "your" side of the rack, while your alliance partner is doing the same on "their" side of the rack.

Auto defense could be interesting too....15 seconds to drive around leaves a lot of possibilities

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

I think autonomous is important this year, but only if an alliance is good at it. Being able to place three tubes before the start of the match would be a devasting advantage. I mean, think of it, you could have a row of 5-6 within 10 seconds of the match. However, I'm not going to pay much attention to autonomous, because I have a feeling that most teams won't be able to do it, and even if there is an alliance on which all teams can cap in autonomous, how will they ensure that their robots do not crash into each other, by locking on to the same light?

I don't think that teams crashing will be as big of a problem as you think, if you have your bot drive forward some first it quickly becomes able to focus only on the light you want it to see. If a team can score 3 keepers in autonomous I think they will be the favorite to win the match. for example if they score the same row in the 1 3 and 5 columns they only have 6 points but 2 more ringers give them 32 points (and obviously anything after that is huge.

[SSMike]

Strategy will definitely be important to the game. It will be the most important thing about this game because of the myriad of ways to score. Every year strategy is important but this year strategy will play a much bigger role. If your alliance doesn’t have a set strategy then they will probably not succeed. They also need to have a few back-up strategies in case something changes or goes wrong. If a robot is key to your plan and they fall over, then you better have a back up plan. Also it will be essential for each team, not just each alliance, to have several strategies of their own. Ultimately this year’s game will be won by the team that knows the game the best and has the best strategy.

Just a correction that I have seen repeated many times. Having a ramp bot does not guarantee 60 points. That was a typo in my original post. Sorry. However I think that getting up on a ramp will be needed to win matches. Someone above me posted that last year many teams couldn’t get up the ramp in time. We traveled to Rochester and Philadelphia last year and found that many teams (including team 250 and 229) had very few problems in climbing the ramp. If they can get up a 30 degree ramp, in 10 seconds, then couldn’t they drive up onto a ramp that is say 10 or 15 degrees? I am not denying this year it will be hard to elevate 2 robots. But I believe that it will be even harder to score on the spider rack in long rows. This is due to the fact that the spider rack will move at the slightest touch making it increasingly harder to place the tubes onto the rack. That’s not even including the opposing alliance spoiling the row!

Our team had mockups during the first week after kickoff. We had a variety of robots (my group’s was going to attempt to use an arm and a ramp) and planned on using attributes from each design to make our robot. Most of the mockups were similar but one stood out. It had a “forklift” on either side of the robot that used a pneumatic system to raise the robots above the field. This could also be used to “flip” a fallen robot back up so they can continue playing in the game.

Just my opinion. This will be an interesting season!

[Phoenixseeker]

Spoiler: How About a robot that will Lift two others more than a foot off the ground and still can score on the rack?

[Scion13]

Getting 60 points will go along way towards winning a match; however, just because you can lift two robots doesn't mean that you will. There are so many things that can go wrong. Your teammates might not be able to fit, clear your ramp, get back to your home zone. They might also be disabled. Also the opposing alliance might be playing defense on you. I predict that it will be very unlikely to get the 60 points in the qualifing rounds.

[Joel J]

For those talking about autonomous: have you investigated the "drive forward for a while" strategy with a few random orientations of the goal? The failure rate isn't that low (as far as the potential for collisions go), given the setup of the rack. I do agree with the autonomous strategy suggested (of driving forward for a while on the corners, and going straight for the rack down the middle) I just don't know how well it will actually play out. As the weeks go on, I'm sure we'll all find out for sure.

my thoughts are that in the finals, both alliances will be capable of getting the 60 point bonus (whether from having a do-all hybrid, or a dedicated ramp bot), and it will be a strategic decision as to whether or not they'll make an attempt at the bonus. That is, if your alliance can't get the bonus, then you may get left behind.