POLL: Will you be using a scoring aid?

[Kyle A]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

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EDIT: If people played without PDA's back when FIRST had this addiction to nigh-impossible-to-calculate-in-your-head multipliers, then we can play without PDA's now.

This is true, they did not have them back then, I'm just saying that it would be a helpful tool. You don't need to have it , but it would be one of those nice things to have.

[Brandon Holley]

wheres the not gonna use anything option


EDIT: Call me old fashioned, but a coach should be able to make a viable strategy decision on the fly at any point during the match. ALSO, your coach isn't going to be jsut focusing on the rack (although most of the focus will be here). You need to be aware of where all the robots on the field are at the same time, what they're doing, how quickly they're doing it. EVEN IF i thought using a palm/laptop/whatever were effective, it is only concentrating on 1 portion of the game. YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW THE SCORE, you just need to know how to increase your score and decrease theirs which is fairly simple, if you see a row of 6, put a spoiler on either the 3rd or 4th spider leg to make it a row of 2 and a row of 3.

As said earlier, back in the day, which was a wednesday by the way, the multipliers were ridiculous (in 2001 it relied on how much time it took your alliance to "get satisfied" with their round). Coaches did not need a palm pilot to tell them the exact score. They just knew they needed to put balls in goal, put bigger balls on a goal, get both those goals balanced on the platform, and get the bots back in the home zone AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE.

I think your coach should be able to observe the situation and know what to do without too much effort based on pure common sense combinded with a little logic. Thats how i'll be rollin this year.

[Cody Carey]

I guess it fits in with the "I don't know" option, but I forgot to add it.


EDIT:
Using a palm pilot doesn't automatically make your coach have 60 less I.Q. points, he will still be able to do the same things he would without it, it is just a useful tool; like a calculator, or the cotton gin.


Your coach will be able to better make a strategy decision when he is properly informed. He will be more completely informed with a palm pilot, or other such score-keeping device. On our team, the coach doesn't drive the robot, and the drivers aren't automatons doing only what they are told while on the field. The coach will tell what the best strategy is, and the drivers will decide how to get it done, because it is their job to drive the robot; not the coach's.
Since all the palm pilot will be is a tool, it will improve efficiency. "put it where you think it should go" is fine and dandy, but I'd hate to be the coach when you lose the match by 2 points because you missed something.


Frankly, I find this blatant rejection of technology to be disturbing on a forum like ChiefDelphi, whose sole purpose is to promote it. A hammer is a hammer, and nobody refuses to use it because : "Real carpenters don't use hammers when building things."

[6600gt]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

I guess it fits in with the "I don't know" option, but I forgot to add it.


EDIT:
Using a palm pilot doesn't automatically make your coach have 60 less I.Q. points, he will still be able to do the same things he would without it, it is just a useful tool; like a calculator, or the cotton gin.


Your coach will be able to better make a strategy decision when he is properly informed. He will be more completely informed with a palm pilot, or other such score-keeping device. On our team, the coach doesn't drive the robot, and the drivers aren't automatons doing only what they are told while on the field. The coach will tell what the best strategy is, and the drivers will decide how to get it done, because it is their job to drive the robot; not the coach's.
Since all the palm pilot will be is a tool, it will improve efficiency. "put it where you think it should go" is fine and dandy, but I'd hate to be the coach when you lose the match by 2 points because you missed something.


Frankly, I find this blatant rejection of technology to be disturbing on a forum like ChiefDelphi, whose sole purpose is to promote it. A hammer is a hammer, and nobody refuses to use it because : "Real carpenters don't use hammers when building things."

I wouldn't go as far as to say that a palm will be completely accurate because of the difficulty in seeing the other side and input errors but I agree with you.

I honestly believe KISS is overrated. Computer hardware, software, cars, cellphones, mp3 players, HDTVs are just a few examples of how everything far more complex than it was even a few years ago. Why is FIRST pushing so many sensors on us? They want us to develop more complex software with more advanced controls and PID algorithms.

At the very least, the KISS formula has to rewritten every year to keep up with the pace.

I am not saying you should completely dump simplicity but rather you shouldn't dump form and function for simplicity, most of the time.

The fact is simplicity has limitations but complexity doesn't. In general, a simple robot more limited than a complex one. Why do people want more options in everything(cars, computers, CELLPHONES)?

[Karthik]

There's so much more to being a good coach than keeping track of score. The coach needs to be aware of what all 6 robots on the field are doing at all times. Each time the coach looks down to input, s/he instantly loses track of what's happening on the field. This isn't a sacrifice that I'd be willing to make. The time spent inputting, is time that isn't spent communicating with the drivers. As a coach, you want your full attention on the entire field. You just can't do that if you're inputting into a handheld.

Sure it'd be handy to know the exact score at any given moment, but it definitely isn't necessary. By examining the state of the rack, a good coach should be able to determine the optimal move quite quickly. This is something that should be practiced extensively before competition. Once this skill is perfected, there should be no need for a palm pilot in the box.

If we were back in the day of two coaches, having the second coach dedicated to scoring and using the palm, might be something that I would consider. But for Rack 'N' Roll, I just see the input time being a bottleneck and a distraction. Especially in matches where you have 4+ competent scorers.

I'll take watching a full match and my own calculations over being distracted and using the palm any day. This is from someone who coached in 1998, when the formula for scoring was x(2^y).

[Guy Davidson]

I might be coaching for our team this year. Some of our guys are currently writing a program to keep track of score and suggest the bester scoring and spoiling locations. Depending on the availability of a tablet-pc or a pal-pilot, we might or might not use it. I feel confident enough that I can do my job with or without it. If it ends up helping me, good for us. If not, oh well.

-Guy

[Jay Trzaskos]

With any luck I will be operating for 229 once again, and if our coach says that he MUST have a scoring aid in order to be successful, I will petition for a new coach, as simple as that.

I'm not attacking anyone who believes they need a PDA in the booth, but I really see no need for a coach to use scoring aids, period.

...you always want to break up the biggest rows of the other team and extend your biggest.

It really is that simple...

[Bongle]

It really is that simple...

This is true. If anyone can think of a more optimal strategy, I'd like to hear it.

Breaking your opponent's rows will ALWAYS reduce their score maximally, and increasing your longest will ALWAYS increase your score maximally.

There are other considerations, like "can we get to the back of the rack to score quickly enough?", but those aren't going to be helped by a palmpilot, they're going to be helped by getting a feel for your alliance and your opponents, and telling if going around will be worth it. If you choose not to go around, then the strategy becomes "Break your opponent's longest row on your side, and extend your longest rows on your side".

[Assassin Shadow]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

"Real carpenters don't use hammers when building things."

First off, people don't say that because real carpenters DO use hammers when building things.

Next, why are they pushing all the sensors on us? You said that it's because they want us to make more complicated robots. Not true! All of the sensors are just options to be put on your robot. If you think you need them, then add them, if not, don't.

Now, on to the KISS principle. YES IT IS THAT SIMPLE! Make your rows big and plentiful, make the opponents small and few! Guarenteed to work every time if done properly!

As for a scoring aid, I don't think that we'll be using one this year. I am, however, making a "game" that flashes up a representation of the rack partially filled and the player has to choose the best place to score within a set time limit. I came up with the idea as a training aid. (I got the idea from those flash memory games that flash a number and some symbols and you have to write them down within a time limit)

[Fred Sayre]

Originally Posted by Pavan

I am sorry but coaches can not have PDA's or anything. ONLY one of the drivers can use it. It was asked on the Q&As.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1185



Pavan.

I think that this is only if it is connected to the operator interface. If it is a stand alone tool I believe it is still allowed.

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by Pavan

I am sorry but coaches can not have PDA's or anything. ONLY one of the drivers can use it. It was asked on the Q&As.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1185



Pavan.

Look in team update #3

Originally Posted by Assassin Shadow

First off, people don't say that because real carpenters DO use hammers when building things.

Next, why are they pushing all the sensors on us? You said that it's because they want us to make more complicated robots. Not true! All of the sensors are just options to be put on your robot. If you think you need them, then add them, if not, don't.

Now, on to the KISS principle. YES IT IS THAT SIMPLE! Make your rows big and plentiful, make the opponents small and few! Guarenteed to work every time if done properly!

As for a scoring aid, I don't think that we'll be using one this year. I am, however, making a "game" that flashes up a representation of the rack partially filled and the player has to choose the best place to score within a set time limit. I came up with the idea as a training aid. (I got the idea from those flash memory games that flash a number and some symbols and you have to write them down within a time limit)

If you are referring to me saying the things with the last section of your post, you are wrong. I did not say any of that. 6600gt did say that, and while I respect his opinions, he is not me. I am not "pushing sensors" on anyone, and neither was he. It is a simple fact that a well implimented sensor system will be necessary for a consistant auto mode this year. The GDC made surt of that. If you don't want to use them, then don't. You will not have as successful of an auto mode as someone who does.

[Brandon Holley]

What this argument comes down to is what do you want the coach to do? Do you want your coach to strictly focus on the rack?? I think this is leaving your team very exposed. That program can have the simplest interface imaginable, but you still are goign to need to take your eyes off the field and change tubes around or what have you.

Obviously people here have their opinions and I honestly do not think that PDAs/palms/whatever are bad...I am not "refusing technology". Technology at times can be distracting. Youve heard it since first grade, your brain is the most powerful computer you can have. I would like to see how your palm works out. However I feel the most effective coaches are the ones that are able to understand the game enough, and evaluate the situations quickly enough to make split second decisions at any point in the match.

Coaching involves ALOT of observation. Your looking at your bot, your teammates, your opponents, the rack, the clock, possible penalties, what the human players are doing, where tubes are located on the field. Honestly the palm pilot or what have you is only concentrating on the rack, nothing more.

[Michelle Celio]

When it comes to tabulating score, you shouldn't need paper or any mechanism to do the scoring for you. Maybe it's my three years of being drilled into the skill of counting, adding, subtracting, and multiplying in binary that leads me to think that but the logic isn't all that hard.

The first meeting my team had after kick off, while we were waiting for our second school to show up, I took it upon my self to diagram out the rack (flat) to try and calculate a perfect score. They didn't arrive until a short time after I had completed it, but the first words out of their mouthes...were "that looks like binary".

And don't we have to put our team numbers on the controller in binary anyway? I know that if you were to give me a team number, within a few seconds I could tell you the value for each bit for that number (within a reasonable amount of time of course). So maybe it's a useful skill this year for students/drive team*especially*/coaches to learn binary so they can easily calculate the score in their head. The hardest part would be accounting for where game pieces are nullified because of a spoiler or which ever other way they can be, because you may not be able to see them. But when you think about it, all it is is binary.

<goes slightly off topic...but I feel it needs to be said>

I think last year spoiled us with the "real time scoring", yes it makes it seem more like a real sport, but FIRST isn't like any other sport out there. FIRST is about getting kids excited about technology and wanting to go into a field where they can use their minds in a productive way. What's the big deal about knowing who is ahead in points? Why does it seem that the most important aspect is who is winning or who is going to win? Winning will get you some glory, but that's just about it. An employer isn't going to care whether or not your team won a FIRST competition, but they're gonna care that you're in career track that you're in and that you can be the best that you can be, and if its FIRST that caused that, then more power to FIRST.

<returning back to topic...>

I know my team will not be using any electronic devices besides the controller (duh), nor do I think they will bring anything up there to help assist in calculating score.

[robbrad]

I am creating a program in C++ for a PSP with a windows operating system emulator.

[Lil' Lavery]

I'm willing to bet that FIRST will have some form of "real time" scoring to display on the screen, similar to 2005, that can typically provide an adequate estimate. That being said, a coach shouldn't rely on it, nor should a coach have to.
The scoring is simple enough, and it will usually be fairly obvious who has a lead. In this game, there are really only 11 scores of the rack a coach should be worried about.
Leading by > 60
Leading by > 45
Leading by > 30
Leading by > 15
Leading by < 15
Tied
Trailing by < 15
Trailing by > 15
Trailing by > 30
Trailing by > 45
Trailing by > 60
Many of these situations may also be null depending on both your and your opponents alliance structure in any particular match.
Beyond that, a coach should be looking for opportunities to extend rows, block rows, and create new rows, place spoilers, on the rack, not worrying about the exact score. A coach MUST be aware of the positions and actions of all 6 robots on the field, time, and game pieces.