How many teams are 100% student built

[Billfred]

I haven't been all the way through the loop with 1618 yet, but I'd guesstimate that about 70 percent of the robot is done by the students. I had a large hand in the drive design, larger than I normally would recommend, but other factors made it beneficial for all concerned. Actual fabrication and assembly of items is largely students. The mentors may start tightening bolts if all the kids are busy, or file a slight sharp edge if we notice one and calling a student over is impractical, but we try and have them handle as much as they can.

[Salik Syed]

FIRST stands for "FOR INSPIRATION AND RECOGNITION OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY" no where does it say anything about students building 100% of the robots.

I say whatever it takes to inspire the students, do it.

[Mr. Van]

I'm going to chime in here. For those who don't know, I'm the coach of the RoboDox - Team 599 from CA.

We have been, in the past, one of those "We're really proud to have a completely student built robot and a completely student run teams." We've been very successful with this approach - and often raised eyebrows at pits where one or two students looked at the backs of a crowd of adults surrounding the 'bot. Our students designed and built and did all of the budgeting, travel arrangements, sponsorship contacts - heck they were even responsible for contacting FedEx and shipping the robot and getting food at the regionals. The team only had one part-time engineer who we rarely saw, except at events...

Then I talked with some people like Dave Lavery, Jason Morella & Woddie Flowers. They pointed out that if you are not having students work side by side learning from mentors, you are missing half of the FIRST program. As Dave mentioned at this years kickoff, the paring of mentors and students is what makes FIRST unique.

This year, we are working hard at making contact and inviting engineers and other professionals to come and mentor our students, and I'm proud to say we have had some success. While the vast majority of the machining is done by students, they are assisted by some mentors. We've had an engineer help with programming and another with some design aspects.

The truth is that we have had difficulty finding engineers who will spend the time necessary to help our program. From what I can tell, engineers come to a team one of two major ways: They are employed by a company that sponsors the team, or they are parents of students on the team. I think that there are many teams started by a group of interested students (and possibly a teacher) who must go out and look for sponsorship and mentorship. This can be very, very difficult.

So we are moving from the 100% student built to a 100% FIRST team as best we can. To that end, I'd like to know if other teams are in this situation, or if anyone has advice on finding mentoring engineers.

Mr. Van
Coach, Team 599
The RoboDox

[Choi9111]

We are 100% student built...we get some help every now and then but other than that 100% YEAH!

[chris31]

Alot, but not all of the team is run by the students. Yes there are things that adults do and yes the kids also have there jobs. Obviuosly money is handled by the adults. The bot is mostly student built (We do enjoy making parents hold things while while we bolt something down, etc). The engineers take a hands off role but are willing to give there opinions and warnings when we ask.

I just hate teams that all you see are adults working on the bot in the pits at regionals.

[T3_1565]

I'm going to have to go with 95% student built. Our mentors do help us a lot with design and some of the harder things like welding and stuff that some of us don't quite understand yet.. but we do learn from them so that we will know how to do it for the next time. But other than that we do most of the work, they point out what we do wrong

[Dasistmeinmoped]

I am VERY proud to say team 41 from Watchung Hills Regional High School is 100% student built. and 99.9% student designed. This normal would be 100% however a former student has returned for a year, and has been providing some guiding in the design area. Jeff is really pushing us beyond what we though might be team 41 possible.

made for students, by students.

[maltz1881]

Team 1322 is MOSTLY student built. They do the lathing most of the machining etc. If we didn't let our main mentor Joe get in there (he is the 1 last year who cut off the 2 fingers!! ) then we would go through so many boxes of kleenex from hearing him cry!!!!!! Plus that the kids love it when he makes a boo boo other then the obvious of course cuz then it was us using the kleenex!!

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by maltz1881

(he is the 1 last year who cut off the 2 fingers!! )

Hopefully there wasn't a second?

[Nitroxextreme]

First off I would like to say that many of these mentor/ student built threads are based only on a person's mood at the time. Im sure that at some point people wanted to be 100% student or 100% mentor. I know that I have swayed back and forth on that.

However, the very important fact that everyone seems to forget is that FIRST is about learning. Personally I understand that there is a HUGE amount of information that one person can find and comprehend by themselves. But...the point of the matter is that even though they learn all these new things, there is still so much more that they can never even think of knowing.

Over the past three years our team has developed greatly and has gone from being built by enthusiastic students...to enthusiastic young adults. We began solely on the basis of building a robot, but we now understand that just building a robot is not enough. Personally I have learned an immense amount through my own experiences and research. On the other hand, the knowledge I have gained on my own cannot even come close to the amount of insight I have gained through talking with mentors, engineers and company owners.

This year I have taken a completely different look at how a robot should be designed and built. For the first time, we are making detailed CAD drawings and testing ideas both with prototypes and 3D CAD models. We also have taken the time to use physics and math to optimize weight vs. strength. In my opinion the most important aspect of this "design concept" is talking with engineers, not simply getting their ideas or having them look at yours. We have been able to use the engineers ideas to elevate our own and change things for the better.

It is my opinion that students MUST be involved in the design and build process, but it is EQUALLY important to involve mentors and engineers.

Jonathan Morgan
Team 1626

[MrForbes]

Team 1726 is a second year team. Our rookie year, there were no mechanical engineers involved, the students did all the design and most of the building (with adult help for those things that required use of machines they could not use). The team was successfull, the robot worked, students and mentors (and parents) learned a lot, and people in our city became enthusiastic about robotics.

This year I've been poking my nose into the design process, teaching the students about how a mechanical engineer (me) thinks about design. I don't want to make any decisions about the design or fabrication (aside from safety issues), but I am surely going to offer a lot of ideas (which are mostly the result of having experience), and I am doing what I can to teach the students how to figure out if a design is going to work or not....while it's still in the concept or design phase. I've had to get out the books and learn and relearn a lot, and I've been really pleased to see some of the students eagerly soaking up quick lessons on how to calcluate moments of inertia, maximum stress due to bending, moments, CG, weight of materials given the dimensions, torque multiplication, what motor ratings mean, etc. None of these things were actually engineered in last years robot.

I've seen first hand that a 100% student designed and built robot can be competitive, and I have also seen first hand that high school students simply are not engineers....yet! This is a great opportunity to show them how to be an engineer (the short lesson). We are fortunate to have a few parent engineers, as well as two non-parent engineering mentors, a very enthusiastic teacher, and a great facility to work in.

[redbarron]

I usually do not post on these kinds of threads, but like someone before me has said these responses are mostly based on what mood you are in at the time. I just had a few questions for some of you.

Those of you that are part of a proud 100% student built robot:

1.) I was wondering what kind of relationship you have with your sponsors?

2.) When you graduate, and/if you decide to come back are you going to take no part in the build, even if it would help a student learn or better understand what he/she is doing. If you ask me I think to not teach a new student something that cannot be taught verbally is holding that student back which is doing more harm than good.

3.) Do you look down on teams that have a mentor or an engineer help them with their robot?

4.) What is your reason for not letting an adult help in the building of your robot.

I am not from a team that is 100% student built and let me tell you something I am proud of that. One thing I can tell you is that I learned more in my 4 years of FIRST by working side by side with engineers and mentors than I ever could have taught myself. By doing this they will help you learn how to work on a team that has its member at different levels of education. When you enter into the workforce dont you think it will feel good to know that you have helped bring the new generation students together with the current workforce? Now I am in no way supportive of a team that has a majority engineer/mentor built robot. But I will stand behind any team that has engineers teaching students the design/production processes, for these teams in my opinion have accomplished the purpose of FIRST.

[Brian C]

Gee RedBarron, after your above post it appears that you can almost hear the crickets chirping. This has been a good discussion with some good open ideas. If it does continue I hope that it remains that way. A responsible exchange of ideas is always a good thing.

[Courtneyb1023]

When my team started out in 03' we were 100% student/parent built. But over the last 4 years we have been able to obtain more and more engineering help. Right now we have a solid group of 3-4 engineers and 3-4 college mentors who are really helping our team. Throughout this transition, I have been able to see the drastic impact that engineering mentors can have on a team. The level of efficiency and ability to get things ordered and accomplished has increased immensely with the addition of engineering mentor help. Plus, seeing someone who is actually in the engineering field getting really excited about the robotics program is really inspiring.

I guess, in conclusion....Yes, it is admirable to be 100% student built, but you are missing out on a large percent of what FIRST is about.

court

[Scott Ritchie]

Good Discussion guys. (Even though it has been hashed out let the newer members hash it for awhile.)

I am glad for however you get your robot on the field and develop some skills along the way.

With our group we are about 75% student designed and about 80% built by students. We do this for one because we can and we have a collection of great mentors. I know that some teams don't have mentors at their disposal so they make do with what they have. Our students value the education and experience the mentors have that they have yet to achieve. At that point they step back and observe how things are done by professionals. To have respect for the process you are in right now, respect the knowledge around you by using it to your full advantage. By having the engineers involved you bring in industry standards, project management, and fresh ideas.

Anyway, good luck however you go about this. See you all in a couple of weeks