Important Q/A forum responses

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Richard

This response is interesting. I don't think it is a departure from standard practice since Q&A was introduced, but it does clarify how Q&A responses are to be used at events; i.e., as guidance.

I'm certain they used the same language last year because Mike Betts and I have had this discussion a few times. Last year we came across similar comments at the end of build season that made us question whether or not the Q&A was binding. In the end we decided as we usually do if we feel a Q&A response is relevant to something we did we will have it printed in hand so that we can make sure the apporpriate "guidance" is available to an inspector.

[Taylor]

Say Blueabot is 28W X 38L X 18 H - one of the infamous "rolling bricks" - and would have to start the match on end. Would the flag mount have to be on a pivot so it would remain vertical as the robot's orientation changes as soon as that first horn sounds?

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by boiler

Say Blueabot is 28W X 38L X 18 H - one of the infamous "rolling bricks" - and would have to start the match on end. Would the flag mount have to be on a pivot so it would remain vertical as the robot's orientation changes as soon as that first horn sounds?

I say make the flag holder tall enough they don't need to start on end and avoid the issue.

[Fred Sayre]

Originally Posted by boiler

Say Blueabot is 28W X 38L X 18 H - one of the infamous "rolling bricks" - and would have to start the match on end. Would the flag mount have to be on a pivot so it would remain vertical as the robot's orientation changes as soon as that first horn sounds?

Are you referring to this rule?

<G29> ROBOT orientation - ROBOTS must start the match with their long (maximum) dimension in
a vertical orientation. After the start of the match, ROBOTS may change their orientation
such that the long dimension is either vertical or horizontal. Refer to Rule <R37> in Section
8 to determine how this affects the use of bumpers.

I think what it is intending is that the "long dimension" is talking about the available long dimension, and not the robot's actual measured dimension. Even though it is 18" tall that dimension is still the long dimension (as 4',5', or 6' is available). I think they just want to prevent people from having a huge starting footprint with the 4'-6' available size.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by fsayre

Are you referring to this rule?

<G29> ROBOT orientation - ROBOTS must start the match with their long (maximum) dimension in
a vertical orientation. After the start of the match, ROBOTS may change their orientation
such that the long dimension is either vertical or horizontal. Refer to Rule <R37> in Section
8 to determine how this affects the use of bumpers.

I think what it is intending is that the "long dimension" is talking about the available long dimension, and not the robot's actual measured dimension. Even though it is 18" tall that dimension is still the long dimension (as 4',5', or 6' is available). I think they just want to prevent people from having a huge starting footprint with the 4'-6' available size.

Nope, it's measured dimension. Here's the GDC's answer on that:

The long dimension is the greatest of the height, width, or depth measurements. If a robot is particularly short (e.g. the height is less than the length), then it must start the match "on-end" in order to comply with this rule. If such a robot can not be designed to flop down, you may consider installing a post, bracket, etc that increases the vertical dimension of the robot (and upon which the flag holder may be mounted).

If it was just the "available" dimension, then all this verbiage wouldn't be necessary. They obviously intend it to be the measured dimension.

[Fred Sayre]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Nope, it's measured dimension. Here's the GDC's answer on that:If it was just the "available" dimension, then all this verbiage wouldn't be necessary. They obviously intend it to be the measured dimension.

Thanks for clearing that up. What an odd rule. Do you have the Q&A link to that?

[Ian Curtis]

Looks like the GDC is implementing a "No Pretty Bumpers" Rule. Last year we thought our embroidered bumpers were the snazziest part of our robot. Looks like no more eye catching bumpers for us.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1879

Originally Posted by GDC

If the numbers are applied to the cloth of the bumbers with ink or dye, they would still be considered Standard Bumpers. If addition material is added to the bumpers in order to display the number, they would no long be considered Standard Bumpers but would instead be considered custom bumpers.

Also of interest, if you ink/dye your team numbers on your bumpers, and you drop ramps, another instance of your team number can appear to satisy<R14>.

[Kevin Sevcik]

About the operator console:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1800

According to <R11> the operator console is NOT part of the robot:
... these items are NOT considered part of the ROBOT ...
... The OPERATOR CONSOLE ....
This contradicts what was said at http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1752
I do not see any rule that states that the operator console is part of the robot.

Please read ALL of Rule <R11> which, in the final paragraph, states that for all other purposes, these items are considered part of the ROBOT.

So.... everyone's doing all their cost accounting for those bump-plated, ground effect lighting festooned operator interfaces with four $50 joysticks plugged into the $130 USB chicklets, right?

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

So.... everyone's doing all their cost accounting for those bump-plated, ground effect lighting festooned operator interfaces with four $50 joysticks plugged into the $130 USB chicklets, right?

Oh geez... didn't think of that. Does this also mean that everyone's favorite CH Flightsticks are not legal this year, since they are no longer publicly available?

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

About the operator console:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=1800
So.... everyone's doing all their cost accounting for those bump-plated, ground effect lighting festooned operator interfaces with four $50 joysticks plugged into the $130 USB chicklets, right?

Take a look at <R51> (bolding added for emphasis)

Originally Posted by Manual Section 8

<R51>

The total cost of all non-Kit Of Parts items must not exceed $3,500.00 USD. No individual item shall have a value of over $400.00. The total cost of components purchased in bulkmay exceed $400.00 USD as long as the cost of an individual component does not exceed $400.00. The following items are EXCLUDED from the total cost calculation:

- The cost of any non-functional decorations
- The cost of individual fasteners, adhesives, or lubricants, unless any one component exceeds $1.00
- The costs of SPARE PARTS. A SPARE PART used as a direct replacement for a failed or defective ROBOT part (either Kit part or non-Kit part) that has already been included in the cost accounting is covered by the accounting for the original part

- All costs for the construction of the OPERATOR CONSOLE

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Oh geez... didn't think of that. Does this also mean that everyone's favorite CH Flightsticks are not legal this year, since they are no longer publicly available?

Joey,

Unless FIRST revises their rules, I agree. The CH Flightsticks are illegal.

Goodbye old friends...

Mike

[Kevin Sevcik]

Karthik,

Missed that one, thanks. I think the whole it is included, it isn't included, it is included again rulings on the OI are just a bit confusing. Obviously.

[kibbs425]

I agree with was last said. You do NOT have to include the cost of the operator controls into the cost of the robot based on the R51. It states EXCLUDING THE FOLLOWING...

So we do NOT have to inclued the cost of the $130 chicklet and the 4-$50 joysticks in the 3500 we get for the robots. If thats what you were to use.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

Indeed, I followed the flowchart, and Flighsticks are ILLEGAL based upon current FRC rules. So unless I'm missing something, we are now limited to essentially the joysticks we get in the kit, make ourselves, or the USB ones we hook up with the Chicklet, as I can't find a vendor of gameport joysticks. The manual makes no exclusions for the Operator Console, other than it is not included in the volume and weight of the robot, and we don't need to account costs for it.

I have so much trouble thinking that this is the intent of the rule, but that is definitely how it reads. I can't imagine that they would want to effectively ban every gameport controller except for the KOP sticks. If this holds up, don't expect to see more steering wheels than you can count on one hand this year. I don't figure that very many teams will be shelling out $200+ for a Chicklet and a USB wheel. I always kind of liked how they treated the OI differently from the robot, and allowed teams to go nuts. Pick up some old sticks from eBay, add some cathodes, work on it after the ship date, don't account for it. I hope the Q&A will give us a reprieve. Otherwise, expect a lot of cookie-cutter OIs from everyone but the wealthiest. Also expect a lot of teams to not figure this out ahead of time and be furiously searching for KOP sticks and redoing their OI on Thursday of their first regional. That's not how it ought to be.

[Mike Betts]

Joey, et al,

You can use almost anything that is COTS or manufactured by the team for the OI. But because the CH Flightsticks are no longer manufactered, they are not COTS and not allowed.

JMHO

Mike