Important Q/A forum responses

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Mike Betts

You can use almost anything that is COTS or manufactured by the team for the OI. But because the CH Flightsticks are no longer manufactered, they are not COTS and not allowed.

I understand the COTS rule. The problem that iCurtis points out is that nobody makes gameport joysticks these days, with the exception of AVB, whose only remaining analog product is the stick that comes in the KOP (See http://www.avbusa.com/pc.htm). I always thought that the OI was kind of fun because there weren't a whole lot of limits on creativity; buying old sticks, gamepads, and steering wheels from eBay was okay. If you can point us to anyone still making analog gameport sticks, I would be thrilled, but I'm pretty sure they've all died out.

[Ricky Q.]

I posted a Q&A question about old CH joysticks and other analog joysticks from eBay and the like, just for clarifications.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Ricky Q.

I posted a Q&A question about old CH joysticks and other analog joysticks from eBay and the like, just for clarifications.

Link?

I'll tell ya though, FIRST has really done a number on poor teams this time around.

What I don't like about this is some guy called "GDC" has just with one line of text, potentially cost the FIRST program over $100,000

EDIT: Please read the posts below. It appears CH Flightsticks may not be outlawed afterall.

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by jgannon

If you can point us to anyone still making analog gameport sticks, I would be thrilled, but I'm pretty sure they've all died out.

A quick search turned This up, but I don't know if it is a gameport model... because one of the pictures if you follow the "view picture" link has a USB attached.

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by Mike Betts

Joey, et al,

You can use almost anything that is COTS or manufactured by the team for the OI. But because the CH Flightsticks are no longer manufactered, they are not COTS and not allowed.

JMHO

Mike

See R28 as updated in Team Update 2.
It would appear that COTS items that are no longer commercially
available can be used, as long they are in vendor delivered condition.

Eugene

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

See R28 as updated in Team Update 2.
It would appear that COTS items that are no longer commercially
available can be used, as long they are in vendor delivered condition.

Here's the ruling that he's talking about:

Originally Posted by Team Update #2

Rule <R28> has been updated to state that:
<R28> COTS ITEMS that are generally available may be used on the ROBOT. COTS ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions or COTS ITEMS that are no longer commercially available may be used under the following conditions:
- The item must be unmodified, and still in its original condition as delivered from the VENDOR
- The item must not be a part custom made for the FIRST competition and provided in a previous FRC Kit Of Parts (e.g. 2006 FRC transmissions, custom-made motor couplers, custom sensor strips, IFI CMUcam II modules, etc. are not permitted)
- The item must satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition

[sanddrag]

Hooray Eugene Brooks and Karthik! Team Update 2 to the rescue? Seems like it eh?

[petek]

I wonder if FIRST is going to emphasize inspection of the operator controls this year? I think last year we just looked at the size, OI vintage and whether the right team number and firmware came up.

[Mike Betts]

All,

I missed that one... As amended, <G28> does allow for the CH Flightsticks.

Regards,

Mike

[jgannon]

I missed it, too. Thanks to Eugene and Karthik... it sounds like the OI will be okay after all.

[Billfred]

Here's one that's going to get a lot of people, if it's not publicized...

Originally Posted by FRC1618

Just to be crystal clear, can a team utilize a battery other than the 2007 FRC-legal batteries for pre-charging a pneumatics system before a match, provided a legal battery is swapped in before the robot takes the field? For moving some appendage of the robot into position before a match under similar circumstances?

Originally Posted by GDC

Non-competition batteries may be used on the practice day, and in the pits for development, debugging, etc. However, all operations of the robots during the competition matches (qualifier matches and elimination matches), and done to prepare the robot for competition (e.g. charging the pneumatic system for a match, or positioning an arm for the start of a match) must be conducted with the competition batteries.

We allow teams to have an offboard compressor to reduce the weight of the robot. However, control and power must come from the competition robot, and therefor the competition batteries. Per Rule <R46>, you must use competition legal batteries in preparation for a competition match.

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Here's one that's going to get a lot of people, if it's not publicized...

I agree - this is a VERY important Q&A that will be missed.

Even though the rule makes a lot of sense in the theory of "all power from the robot," logistically, it's a disaster. Hypothetically this means that you cannot use an offboard battery to power the compressor, even if you're using it at the competition. Why? Because the battery to power the compressor would count as a SECOND battery, and you're only allowed one battery to power your robot per match. Teams will HAVE to find a way to "port in" to their robot to power the compressor (like an electrical outlet). This is easily accomplished by having a couple of unused Anderson Connectors attached to the outside frame of your robot, connected to the rest of your wiring harness. Just plug, pressurize, and go!

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Please remember that at the base of this issue with off board compressors is the need to demonstrate that the compressor will shut down under RC control which precludes the need for the compressor to be powered through a spike from the same battery used to power the RC.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

Even though the rule makes a lot of sense in the theory of "all power from the robot," logistically, it's a disaster. Hypothetically this means that you cannot use an offboard battery to power the compressor, even if you're using it at the competition. Why? Because the battery to power the compressor would count as a SECOND battery, and you're only allowed one battery to power your robot per match. Teams will HAVE to find a way to "port in" to their robot to power the compressor (like an electrical outlet). This is easily accomplished by having a couple of unused Anderson Connectors attached to the outside frame of your robot, connected to the rest of your wiring harness. Just plug, pressurize, and go!

I'm pretty sure an offboard compressor has always needed to be powered by an onboard robot battery. Atleast thats how I've always read the rule.

I'm much more concerned about the fact that ALL robot prep must happen with the competition battery. I understand the logic there, but keeping track of whether you're testing and debugging or actually resetting devices on your robot for a match will be a real nightmare. What if you've been debugging over lunch with a non-comp battery and parts of your robot end up in reset position and then you forget that you did so over lunch and don't re-reset them with a comp battery? I'm thinking that they'll almost have to be a bit lenient with this one and only come down on blatant repeat offenders. It's not as if you can scan the robot with a tricorder and find out if the quantum wave stat of the last electrons to course through it match a competition battery...

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'm pretty sure an offboard compressor has always needed to be powered by an onboard robot battery. Atleast thats how I've always read the rule.

I'm much more concerned about the fact that ALL robot prep must happen with the competition battery. I understand the logic there, but keeping track of whether you're testing and debugging or actually resetting devices on your robot for a match will be a real nightmare. What if you've been debugging over lunch with a non-comp battery and parts of your robot end up in reset position and then you forget that you did so over lunch and don't re-reset them with a comp battery? I'm thinking that they'll almost have to be a bit lenient with this one and only come down on blatant repeat offenders. It's not as if you can scan the robot with a tricorder and find out if the quantum wave stat of the last electrons to course through it match a competition battery...

(Begin Sarcasm) Does this mean we have to use the battery to reset all stored power too, sine power is work over time and work is a change in energy. I mean so many teams are using gas springs, springs, latex tubing, gravity, etc. to activate mechanisms on their robot that they must clearly follow this poorly worded explanation by creating a Rube Goldberg powered off their battery to reset any and all mechanisms just to follow the rule because you know power is power and since it has to come from the battery all power on the robot must come from the battery. (End sarcasm)

The wording in that was poorly thought out but the intent is clear. They don't want you to use the old batteries in a way that may allow for them to get in the robot for competition. Don't lawyer like I did above and don't do something stupid like showing up to the field with an old battery on your robot or cart, and you'll probably be fine.

Pete