Stop with the "RTFM" stuff

[VEN]

And to tell the truth saying things like "use the search function" and "RTFM" make you look like a whiner who's only interest is to correct someone and make them feel awkward. Make everyone feel welcome and answer their questions the way they would like them to be answered or at least answer their question first and say that similar information could be found if "blablabla" is typed into the search function. Otherwise you're making the thread even more useless by posting unnecessary comments.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by VEN

And to tell the truth saying things like "use the search function" and "RTFM" make you look like a whiner who's only interest is to correct someone and make them feel awkward. Make everyone feel welcome and answer their questions the way they would like them to be answered or at least answer their question first and say that similar information could be found if "blablabla" is typed into the search function. Otherwise you're making the thread even more useless by posting unnecessary comments.

How about this: Teach them by example in your answer.

Example:
I searched ChiefDelphi.com with the words "Fisher Price Gearbox" and found the following threads that could have helped you...

The rules are broke up in a few sections. Robot rules are in Section XYZ and Game rules are in Section NMO. Your question covers both sections so you need to read both sections closely....

Being rude is easy. Being a compassionate human being takes work.

Joe J

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Being rude is easy. Being a compassionate human being takes work.

Nice sermon...amen!

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I have often come across posts with "search first!" as the only response. I know that there are talented people on this forum that have an extreme ability to search the forum... others do not. I am one of those that don't. I don't know a thing about booleans or whatnot and am impatient when it comes down to looking through threads for a specific answer. I also hate to get told to "search first!!!!!!11!!1!one" and that's all that person has in their post. Really annoying and immature.

When I was younger, 2004 I think, I accidentally clicked the post thread button twice and I got my butt handed to me multiple times via neg rep. It was a simple mistake. Young people make mistakes. Older people make mistakes. Heck, even I make mistakes.

I've always wanted to know if there are actually people on this forum that are dead set on finding mistakes by people so they can shove them out into the road to get chewed up by the neg rep givers. It's annoying and lame. So thank you Karthik. You just did what I had been contemplating on doing for the past week or so.. just never got around to it.

The same as what I said goes for the "RTFM" posts, also.

Thank you,

-Jeremiah

[Pavan Dave]

I agree one hundred percent. Last year I asked a question about one of the parts in the KoP, and I got two negative reps with "read the manual," and although I agreed that I should have read it over again, I thought it took more time to actually type out the post and negitve rep me than it would to "CTRL+F" the awnser from a merged manual.

There is a nicer phrase if you must refer to using a phrase called "RTMP" which I have found no vulgur interpritations for which means' Read the Manual Please,' which is a bit nicer but still impolite that someone still told you too look at the manual and post rather than to take a few minutes of their time to to "help" a fellow FIRSTer.

Pavan.

[Taylor]

Hmm. I always thought RTFM meant "Rice. Toronto's Favorite Meal."

One other drawback to "RTFM" posts is that other teams may think you have answered a question. If a thread pops up that looks interesting, with say 3 or 4 responses, I'll check it out. It seems that more often than not, the first post is a question, then the next 2 or 3 are variations of "RTFM." So not only are the RTFMers being rude to the thread starter, but they're wasting the valuable time of members of other teams, not to mention the moderators.

[BandChick]

I absolutely agree with Taylor, while saying RTFM gets the point across, it doesn't help ANYONE. Katie's post was invaluable, and I thank her for it. And remember, not everyone has the time to sit and read every detail of the FIRST Manual. I garauntee there is a section in it that I don't know at all. And rather than sitting down and searching the entire manual for a small question, it's a lot easier to ask for reference from my other CDers. =)

[65_Xero_Huskie]

Originally Posted by BandChick

And rather than sitting down and searching the entire manual for a small question, it's a lot easier to ask for reference from my other CDers. =)

Thats what my team does. Since its only me and another person on our team thats active on CD, i am always asked the question "was there anything on CD about it yet?" or "Go post it on CD and see what they think"

[Matt Krass]

People often tell me their RTFM posts are because people asking redundant questions answered in the manual clutter the forums. Well here's a newsflash, posting "RTFM" and nothing else is going to bring your thread to the top of the portal, and fill it up with something truly useless.

Seriously, if you're so high up on your pedestal you can only be bothered to scold others without actually doing anything helpful, then please just shut up.

Yes, I said shut up, yes it's rude, so are the people that just say RTFM and nothing else.

If someone posts something obviously in the manual, then post the section, or their answer and a reminder to look at the manual, maybe a hint on how to found certain bits and pieces. I can say as a programmer I focused on those aspects of the manual and its a big manual, so its not always intuitive where the other stuff is, it's pretty easy to miss stuff. We can all help promote manual reading by helping people understand how to find things, and by encouraging (not berating!) them to look in the manual more deeply.

That's my two and change.

[Elgin Clock]

Oh, you know I have something to say about all of this.

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I think the point Karthik is trying to make is that although it is commonly accepted to most of the people around here that it means "Read the FIRST Manual," it doesn't matter. We all know where the phrase was derived from, and that even though we've changed what the letter says, we haven't changed the meaning of the phrase.

I agree that RTFM as an ONLY response is very rude.
That said, the RTFM responses should stop as a single entity in a response.
Libby's example was kinda funny though I'll admit. I laughed and gave her some positive rep for having a sense of humor, something some people on these forums obviously lack..
Anyways.. to respond to the whole RTFM thing as a whole.. I have a comment.
When someone asks a question here 5 minutes after kickoff (which happens EVERY year, that is kind of annoying, and probably does deserve a RTFM response.. Sit back and read the manual for a few hours AFTER watching the kickoff and BEFORE instantly coming here to ask a question. Kind of annoying.. yes.. it is. Don't lie to yourself. Everyone here has been annoyed at posts at one time. Even this thread is proof of that.
Right now though, if I see a RTFM as a response, I feel bad for the person posting cause by now if they have questions, they probably already read the manual where they thought it would be.

Originally Posted by BandChick

And remember, not everyone has the time to sit and read every detail of the FIRST Manual. I garauntee there is a section in it that I don't know at all.

I can't lie, I have not read the manual at all this year. I am a little less involved in FIRST in build season as a whole than I have been in previous years. That said, with 6 weeks of build, and more until the events start, I expect everyone on my team to understand the manual, the game, and the rules enough to proceed without asking questions that can EASILY be defined in the manual very clearly. Everyone in FIRST has plenty of time to read the manual. Do it.
If you don't, then obviously you are not that dedicated to the program and should not be asking questions.

Originally Posted by 65_Xero_Huskie

Thats what my team does. Since its only me and another person on our team thats active on CD, i am always asked the question "was there anything on CD about it yet?" or "Go post it on CD and see what they think"

Ok, I'll have to respond to this one in 2 parts.

"was there anything on CD about it yet?"

Good idea. If someone already asked for something to be clarified, no need for you to ask again. Awesome thought process.

"Go post it on CD and see what they think"

Also a good idea, and ONLY because of the words "what they think". Remember CD and the people posting here are not official answers. You can only get those directly from FIRST and the Q&A system. No one should act as an official agent of FIRST on here (minus a few folks - Such as Dave, but even his posts say something to the effect of "I know inside info, but to be absolutely sure you get a right answer and to make it completely official, please ask the Q&A" - Smart guy that Dave character. )

All of us are learning, and trying to teach at the same time with the game, and the competition. Which brings me to the next quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Krass

Seriously, if you're so high up on your pedestal you can only be bothered to scold others without actually doing anything helpful, then please just shut up.

Yes, I said shut up, yes it's rude, so are the people that just say RTFM and nothing else.

Yes, I agree with Matt completely. If you think you have enough knowledge to post a RTFM reply, get off your high horse, and actually start helping.
Post the section, and a bulleted <X> type thing to steer someone in the right direction.

The manual is the easiest thing to quote in the world. Just post:

<R1>

or something similar as a response if you are too lazy to type an answer.

Guess what?
The example of <R1> is the same length characters as RTFM so you won't be wasting any more time typing if that's what you are worried about doing.

If that's not the issue, then just go bug your team and build a bot and stop posting here if you can't post nicely.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I agree with the general tone of this thread. I would like to remind people that new posters are not as savy as us "old" people and although they have an idea that the manual might contain the answer, they aren't familiar with the document's layout and how the subjects are organized. It would be a big help to include a quote of the manual section to help them get familiar with the manual. For instance from the manual I have downloaded...

Bumpers are covered in the Robot section of the manual
"<R37> Teams are strongly encouraged to use bumpers on their ROBOTS. Bumpers can reduce damage to ROBOTS when they contact another ROBOT or field elements. Teams may choose to use STANDARD BUMPERS or custom bumper designs. STANDARD BUMPERS have several advantages, such as being excluded from the calculation of the ROBOT weight and volume limitations specified in Rule <R07>. "
Please review this section as it applies to your design.

This way you are pointing them at the section you have read and are referencing in your answer. Everyone should also remember that more than one person will read their response including mentors and students who are not on a FRC team but are investigating the possibility. We all then are taking some responsibility for starting new teams while visiting here.

[meaubry]

Thanks everyone for reminding us all of the appropriate etiqutte for posting replies. It is obvious from the outpouring of responses to Karthik, that all of you "get it" and that makes us at CD very, very, happy!

So - now lets all go and exercise the best practices that each of you have taken the time to share here.

Just remember to "be nice" when posting responses - even to those that think "Read The First Manual", is an approporiate response.

I would think that users would prefer reading a responses that includes "value added" information, put together in a way that supports a warm and friendly community, verses, an acronym or rude one liner.

Now "go forth" and teach everyone by example, the right way to handle these situations.

Good job folks -

Mike Aubry