How many teams are 100% student built

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by redbarron

1.) I was wondering what kind of relationship you have with your sponsors?

2.) When you graduate, and/if you decide to come back are you going to take no part in the build, even if it would help a student learn or better understand what he/she is doing. If you ask me I think to not teach a new student something that cannot be taught verbally is holding that student back which is doing more harm than good.

3.) Do you look down on teams that have a mentor or an engineer help them with their robot?

4.) What is your reason for not letting an adult help in the building of your robot.

I'll answer these as I would have after my first season in FIRST, and as I feel now after a few years mentoring.

1)
Then: Not much of a relationship. They sponsored us, but didn't send any engineers, so we were really didn't have an opportunity for mentoring anyway
Now: On my most recent team, it was about the same. Some of the sponsors were student's parent's employers, so the parents were there, but they would have been anyway. The other sponsors (school board) obviously couldn't send anyone. Really, I'd call it about equal to my original high school team

2)
Then: I probably would have said I was going to return, because in fact I did return to that team the very next year. I felt pretty guilty about every line of code I wrote or helped write outside of teaching C/C++.
Now: I still feel pretty guilty giving too much more detail beyond a general algorithm outline. I feel good teaching stuff they typically wouldn't have learned in HS math or computer science courses, but I feel bad saying "alright, so this is exactly a method or algorithm that will work".
3)
Then: Given a team that had any adult touch their robot at any point during build or competition, I would have thought they were, if not cheating, bending the rules of what was purportedly a high school competition.
Now: I mainly only dislike teams with pits full of adults, which is difficult to reconcile with my enjoyment of hanging out in the pit with the programming team begging to adjust code on the robot.

4) Since my old HS team was primarily a fabrication-based team, the teachers view it as an extraordinary chance for the students to apply their manufacuring skills that they've been learning. Thus, there is little need for adult mentors seen, as all the senior students already know how to mill, lathe, drill press, and weld. Also, there was a strong view of the competition as a primarily high school competition, so teams with super-heavy mentor involvement were seen as bending rules. Plus, the students get a much better feeling of accomplishment after finishing a robot and knowing that they did it ALL.

So there are my answers to your survey. Right now I'm pretty fine with heavy mentor involvement, but primarily limited to teaching students how to use tools to get the job done. Whether those tools are lathes, hammers, algorithms, or math, that's all good, just so long as the mentor isn't the one implementing the code, fabricating the part, or designing the robot.

[roboticsguy1988]

Team 1501's stand has always been student lead and built. The mentors are there for help / teaching, and advice.

A good example of this would be our Monocoque deisgn / construction. If it wasn't very Jerry Smyth taking us under his wing and showing us what it was all about, and the concepts of it, and then how to apply those, we would have never started that way. Now, Jerry is still there teaching the new students, but unlike the first year of 1501, there is now senior students teaching new students.

Students make decisions on there own. For example, we had several robot design conceptions. So a mentor jumped in and set why don't you use a voting system like this to vote on the designs and the strengths and weaknesses of it.

FIRST should always be about taking a students interests and letting them go with it and do what they like to do (with limitations of course), and if they don't know how to accomplish something there is always a mentor there to help.

Personally I like seeing students have fun and gain knowledge from other students or mentors that they will use for the rest of their lives. There just does not seem to be any point on being a member of a FIRST team if the mentors are going to build it or do all the work, because what does the student learn then.

[Goldberg204]

Originally Posted by redbarron

Those of you that are part of a proud 100% student built robot:

1.) I was wondering what kind of relationship you have with your sponsors?

2.) When you graduate, and/if you decide to come back are you going to take no part in the build, even if it would help a student learn or better understand what he/she is doing. If you ask me I think to not teach a new student something that cannot be taught verbally is holding that student back which is doing more harm than good.

3.) Do you look down on teams that have a mentor or an engineer help them with their robot?

4.) What is your reason for not letting an adult help in the building of your robot.

1) We are not sponsored by any professional engineering company's, just local companies who are willing to help us out.

2) After I graduate, if I do come back, I will not put a single nut or bolt on the robot. This is a highschool club and it will continue to be, I should not even do the slightest modification for the kids. Ill give them my suggestions and my input on the situation, but I wont touch the robot.

3) I don't look down on the teams that have engineers build their robots but I think that it is just unfair. There are some teams out there that have NO way of getting engineers to help them out so it is an unlevel playing field. I just dont see the point in having 20 students up in the stands while 10 grown men mess and fix the robot. Even though, I get great satisfaction when we blow out a team and 10 men run out onto the field yelling, picking up the robot and sprinting back to their pit with it.

4) The reason we don't let an adult touch our robot is because this is a HIGHSCHOOL club. If this was a community club, and any age could join, then I could understand, but this is for kids, in high school. I know that in the name, no where does it reflect that it is just for the kids, but are you really helping kids when you build a robot for them? When the kids grow up, dont you think one day they will be in the same situation again saying, man, wheres Mr. so and so, I dont know where to drill this.


Sorry if I came off to harsh, but this kind of thing really sets me off

[MrForbes]

You might be setting up a "false dichotomy" here. That is where you look at a situation in black and white terms, ignoring the (much more likely) middle ground.

I fully agree that having 10 adults in the pits working on the robot, and 20 students in the stands, is not a desirable situation. But I also feel that having 10 students in the pits, and one adult sitting there keeping quiet, is just as bad. Either way, there is no student-mentor interaction. How about aiming for the middle ground? Having one mentor working with perhaps 3 or 4 students at a time, discussing a robot problem, and thinking of and anylyzing ideas to fix it, can get a lot done on the robot. It also provides a valuable educational experience for both the students and the mentor.

This "either-or" mentality seems to me to be quite the opposite of what FIRST is all about. Those people who support mentor involvement with the robot design and build are not suggesting that students stay out of the process. We all know the students should be as involved with it as they can be. But students are still students, and might be wise to use the knowledge and experience of the mentors. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

[RoboMom]

FIRST is about partnerships and teamwork (as any team who has submitted a NASA grant knows). I love Woodie’s quote about the “robot being the campfire we gather around.” Mentoring is hard work, but can be one of the most meaningful experiences someone can have, for all parties involved. There is no blueprint for how to do a FIRST team, but it is always apparent by all these threads that there are a lot of mentors doing a heck of a job.
Maybe my definition is too broad but to me “100% student built” is not totally right unless the students are also doing all the fundraising, paperwork, shipping arrangements, travel, on and on. Which they are not. It takes a community to have a FIRST team, so be proud of what you have accomplished but recognize there are a lot of “non-students” who helped you get there.

[Justin Montois]

Originally Posted by Goldberg204

1) We are not sponsored by any professional engineering company's, just local companies who are willing to help us out.

2) After I graduate, if I do come back, I will not put a single nut or bolt on the robot. This is a highschool club and it will continue to be, I should not even do the slightest modification for the kids. Ill give them my suggestions and my input on the situation, but I wont touch the robot.

3) I don't look down on the teams that have engineers build their robots but I think that it is just unfair. There are some teams out there that have NO way of getting engineers to help them out so it is an unlevel playing field. I just dont see the point in having 20 students up in the stands while 10 grown men mess and fix the robot. Even though, I get great satisfaction when we blow out a team and 10 men run out onto the field yelling, picking up the robot and sprinting back to their pit with it.

4) The reason we don't let an adult touch our robot is because this is a HIGHSCHOOL club. If this was a community club, and any age could join, then I could understand, but this is for kids, in high school. I know that in the name, no where does it reflect that it is just for the kids, but are you really helping kids when you build a robot for them? When the kids grow up, dont you think one day they will be in the same situation again saying, man, wheres Mr. so and so, I dont know where to drill this.


Sorry if I came off to harsh, but this kind of thing really sets me off

Bingo

[redbarron]

I am going to reply to this a second time because I believe my first post was misunderstood. I do not come from a team nor do I want to be on a team where the robot is engineer built. I believe that a engineer working with a group of 5-10 students where he/she is "HELPING" not "TAKING OVER" is o.k. When a student is stuck and cant figure it out, if the engineer goes over to help them than that is o.k. in my opinion, as long as they dont go over snatch the part up and put it on themselves. But if the engineer walks over and gives them advice or a description of how something goes on, then thats a lot better than if they were to sit there and say well I guess he/she will figure it out themselves or go on chief delphi and post a question while I sit here. Like I said before I believe that a student will learn far less by watching an engineer do the work, but I also believe that a student will learn more by working in a group of students that is working with an engineer.

[redbarron]

Originally Posted by Goldberg204

1) We are not sponsored by any professional engineering company's, just local companies who are willing to help us out.

2) After I graduate, if I do come back, I will not put a single nut or bolt on the robot. This is a highschool club and it will continue to be, I should not even do the slightest modification for the kids. Ill give them my suggestions and my input on the situation, but I wont touch the robot.

3) I don't look down on the teams that have engineers build their robots but I think that it is just unfair. There are some teams out there that have NO way of getting engineers to help them out so it is an unlevel playing field. I just dont see the point in having 20 students up in the stands while 10 grown men mess and fix the robot. Even though, I get great satisfaction when we blow out a team and 10 men run out onto the field yelling, picking up the robot and sprinting back to their pit with it.

4) The reason we don't let an adult touch our robot is because this is a HIGHSCHOOL club. If this was a community club, and any age could join, then I could understand, but this is for kids, in high school. I know that in the name, no where does it reflect that it is just for the kids, but are you really helping kids when you build a robot for them? When the kids grow up, dont you think one day they will be in the same situation again saying, man, wheres Mr. so and so, I dont know where to drill this.


Sorry if I came off to harsh, but this kind of thing really sets me off

To take it as far as calling it a community club if engineers are working with the students is just crazy. I see your point as far as a pit full of adults is concerned, but the whole point of FIRST is to spread the idea of going into a career of science and/or technology. Now if FIRST gave you the inspiration to realize that you could become an engineer, then I am glad that the way to give that inspiration back to the kids is to not even touch a bolt or nut on the robot that they are entering into the competition where everything is not level.Whether you are a team sponsored by a big time name like Delphi who gives you engineers and a healthy budget or a small business local welder who helped you in a bind with his/her expertise, the help is greatly appreciated. And if the team is a successful one in regards to the mission of FIRST then the students will go into a career where they can help level out the competition by providing their experience in the field they chose toward your problems/concerns/ideas towards your robot. I just do not see a feasible explanation as to why it would be a bad thing for an engineer to "HELP" (not take over the bot and build it to his/her taste) a team.

[Dan Petrovic]

No...

We aren't 100% student built. Not even 100% student assembled. Most of the assembly is done by students.

Let's see. I like the way Cody Carey layed out rough percentages of stuff that is done by mentors and students.

100% of the design is done by students.
100% of CADing is done by students.
100% of prototyping is done by students.
~90% of assembly is done by students.
~70% of programming is done by students (simply because the software team is shorthanded, there comes a time when mentors do need to step in)
Almost all in-house machining is done by mentors (don't really have the time to train kids to use the machines.)
We do have mentors look over designs to make sure they aren't outrageous.
Mentors teach us calculations of certain things.
Mentors help us solve big problems when they show up.

Yeah, I can't say we are 100% student built. Sometimes I'd like to say we are, and others I really wouldn't. Yeah, this program is intended to teach the students, but why not let the mentors have some fun? They are giving up their personal time to do this after all.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

but why not let the mentors have some fun?

nice perspective!

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

Yeah, this program is intended to teach the students, but why not let the mentors have some fun?

There is no instrument or tool that has been found that can measure the depth of commitment of many of our mentors to students unless it be the heart.
100%

[AustinSchuh]

I am a little nervious about joining the fray, but here is how we are working this year.

I, a student, am the person who designed the WHOLE robot. After the initial design process, I reviewed the design with 254 who graciously agreed to look at it and comment. I then fixed up some things, and went on to visit our machining sponsor. They gave me more suggestions, and I added those. The students then drew up all of the robot, and sent it off to our sponsors and mentors to be machined. Now that the parts are coming back, we the students are putting the robot together.
We work with our mentors and sponsors to check the design, and to machine it. Once the parts get back, the students get to work assembling and making the robot work. We have one machinist mentor who is helping us, but he is mostly helping file the axles he helped make and make the spacers fit. It is great to work with him, since this is the first year we have ever tried to design something in cad Before we make it.
This year, we are some what of a mix of student and mentor built, but I can say with certainty that the students are the driving force behind the design, and the mentors are just helping us get over the quirks that we are running into.

[thewhit]

Our team...#1666 The Nerd Herd haha...we are 99% student built. We would also we 100% student built if we had full ability to weld aluminum and run a machine that the building owners refuse to trust us with. Otherwise my small team of 17 build everything ourselves.

[Viper37]

Originally Posted by squirrel

You might be setting up a "false dichotomy" here. That is where you look at a situation in black and white terms, ignoring the (much more likely) middle ground.

I fully agree that having 10 adults in the pits working on the robot, and 20 students in the stands, is not a desirable situation. But I also feel that having 10 students in the pits, and one adult sitting there keeping quiet, is just as bad. Either way, there is no student-mentor interaction. How about aiming for the middle ground? Having one mentor working with perhaps 3 or 4 students at a time, discussing a robot problem, and thinking of and anylyzing ideas to fix it, can get a lot done on the robot. It also provides a valuable educational experience for both the students and the mentor.

This "either-or" mentality seems to me to be quite the opposite of what FIRST is all about. Those people who support mentor involvement with the robot design and build are not suggesting that students stay out of the process. We all know the students should be as involved with it as they can be. But students are still students, and might be wise to use the knowledge and experience of the mentors. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

I fully agree. Well put.

[FunkyRatDemon]

753 is kid built, however our mentors show us how to make parts and program the machines to do so...