Banebot 56mm gearbox - double D - RELOADED

[Joe Johnson]

A note to all the folks concerned about the 42mm and 36mm gearbox:

I appreciate your concern but the cases have almost nothing in common with eachother.

Let me explain. The 56mm gearbox is PURCHASED by FIRST to put in the kit. While teams can use them for any purpose they see fit, the main purpose that FIRST decided to buy them is to drive robot chassis for teams with scarces resources. The reason I have been loosing sleep is that I believe that a drivable robot is so fundamental to a successful FIRST season that the mission of FIRST was at risk of being damaged if teams were going to see these failures in competition.

Now to the 36mm gearboxes. These are gearboxes that Banebots DONATED to the kit. More than that, they donated an extra motor and other goodies. Beyond that, they offer for sale other things that make building robots easier and more robust.

There is literally NOTHING in the FIRST KOP that cannot be damaged if used beyond their limitations. All KOP items, actually, all items have limitations.

In my work to solve the 56mm Gearbox Double D issue, I found that I could extrapolate some of my results to the 36mm gearbox that Banebots donated to the KOP as well as the 42mm gearbox that Banebots sells. I THOUGHT I was doing the FIRST community a service. I was offering advice as to what I thought a conservative use of these parts would entail.

While I am happy that I have perhaps prevented some teams from designing a mechanism that will break. I regret that many teams have inferred from this several false ideas:

• The 36mm and 42mm gearboxes are defective* -- THIS IS FALSE
• The 36mm and 42mm gearboxes are not extremely useful for a FIRST robot -- THIS IS FALSE
• FIRST and/or Banebots should do something to remove this limitation -- THIS IS FALSE

Perhaps my greatest regret is that my conservative estimates have caused significant financial damage to Banebots**. While I have not spoken to Banebots about specific numbers, it is clear that teams are mis-interpreting my conservative estimates to mean that they should not use Banebots' 36mm and 42mm gearboxes at all. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

While teams are free to do whatever they want, I really really hope that teams will think and act rationally. I believe that if they do, they will end up buying quite a few products from Banebots. I think this will be a good thing for a number of reasons not the least of which that FIRST benefits from companies like AndyMark, IFI, and Banebots being around and supporting FIRST. Sales are what keeps a business in business. Sales to FIRST teams make donating stuff (or selling it at a deep discount) to the FIRST KOP a lot easier to fit into a business plan.

For what it is worth.

Joe J.


*believe it or not, a team actually tried to return the KOP 36mm gearbox claiming it was defective -- this is insanity, not to mention about the most ungracious request I can imagine. Think about it, a company donates something to the FIRST KOP and a team has the audacity to request a cash refund because the part could, in theory, be broken. My blood boils!!!

**I will state again for the record, other than the fact that Robotic Amusements, Inc. uses Banebots as a supplier of some of its motors, I have no financial tie to Banebots at all. To be specific, they don't pay me, I get no commision, I don't get a discount or kickback on other sales, I am not a paid consultant for them, etc. etc.

[cbpetrovic]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

A note to all the folks concerned about the 42mm and 36mm gearbox:

I appreciate your concern but the cases have almost nothing in common with eachother.

Let me explain. The 56mm gearbox is PURCHASED by FIRST to put in the kit. While teams can use them for any purpose they see fit, the main purpose that FIRST decided to buy them is to drive robot chassis for teams scares resources. The reason I have been loosing sleep is that I believe that a drivable robot is so fundamental to a successful FIRST season that the mission of FIRST was at risk of being damaged if teams were going to see these failures in competition.

Now to the 36mm gearboxes. These are gearboxes that Banebots DONATED to the kit. More than that, they donated an extra motor and other goodies. Beyond that, they offer for sale other things that make building robots easier and more robust.

There is literally NOTHING in the FIRST KOP that cannot be damaged if used beyond their limitations. All KOP items, actually, all items have limitations.

In my work to solve the 56mm Gearbox Double D issue, I found that I could extrapolate some of my results to the 36mm gearbox that Banebots donated to the KOP as well as the 42mm gearbox that Banebots sells. I THOUGHT I was doing the FIRST community a service. I was offering advice as to what I thought a conservative use of these parts would entail.

While I am happy that I have perhaps prevented some teams from designing a mechanism that will break. I regret that many teams have inferred from this several false ideas:

• The 36mm and 42mm gearboxes are defective* -- THIS IS FALSE
• The 36mm and 42mm gearboxes are not extremely useful for a FIRST robot -- THIS IS FALSE
• FIRST and/or Banebots should do something to remove this limitation -- THIS IS FALSE

Perhaps my greatest regret is that my conservative estimates have caused significant financial damage to Banebots**. While I have not spoken to Banebots about specific numbers, it is clear that teams are mis-interpreting my conservative estimates to mean that they should not use Banebots' 36mm and 42mm gearboxes at all. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

While teams are free to do whatever they want, I really really hope that teams will think and act rationally. I believe that if they do, they will end up buying quite a few products from Banebots. I think this will be a good thing for a number of reasons not the least of which that FIRST benefits from companies like AndyMark, IFI, and Banebots being around and supporting FIRST. Sales are what keeps a business in business. Sales to FIRST teams make donating stuff (or selling it at a deep discount) to the FIRST KOP a lot easier to fit into a business plan.

For what it is worth.

Joe J.


*believe it or not, a team actually tried to return the KOP 36mm gearbox claiming it was defective -- this is insanity, not to mention about the most ungracious request I can imagine. Think about it, a company donates something to the FIRST KOP and a team has the audacity to request a cash refund because the part could, in theory, be broken. My blood boils!!!

**I will state again for the record, other than the fact that Robotic Amusements, Inc, uses Banebots as a supplier of some of the motors, I have no financial tie to Banebots at all. for example, they don't pay me, I get no commision, I don't get a discount or kickback on other sales, I am not a paid consultant for them, etc. etc.

Dr. Joe...

Team 166 has been following these threads and support everything you and all the other teams offering suggestions, perform testing, etc.

However, I believe that it would be a much easier task for those of us planning to manufacture new parts if we had drawings to use.

Are there any plans from BaneBots to supply the drawing for the carrier plate for the 56mm gearbox?

Please forgive me if this question has been answered in a previous thread. My time is limited to search for such information.

C. B. Petrovic - Team 166

[travis]

Lockheed Martin seems to be in the mood to detemine the carrier plate alloy. I found a sympathetic lab manager that has at his disposal all the NDE equipment we use making the space shuttle external tank. Are people still interested in this?

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by travis

Lockheed Martin seems to be in the mood to detemine the carrier plate alloy. I found a sympathetic lab manager that has at his disposal all the NDE equipment we use making the space shuttle external tank. Are people still interested in this?

Thanks but I think the need for mat'l reverse engineering has past. BUT... ...you're on the list. We will keep you in our pocket for a later date when we might just pull you out and use you.

Thanks again.

Joe J.

[ZZII 527]

Thanks again for your hard work this week, Joe. Cool heads will prevail and I hope we don't scare away suppliers...the more the better.

Thanks also for the drawings. I sort-of guessed from measurement, knowing it was metric, but that will help a lot. I am going to try to cut some test carriers out of O1 or A1 tool steel (similar in hardness to the 42mm carrier and capable of being tempered). It will mean hunting for waterjet time, which is tough because there is a class that uses them a lot right about this time of January/February. But I'll let everone know how it goes.

[Ted_Z]

Good work on the drawings Joe. Is there any reason why a single plate couldn't be used for both the 4:1 and 3:1 ratios? Just rotate one bolt pattern by 36 degrees relative to the other. That might make the manufacturing of replacement plates more streamlined.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Ted_Z

Good work on the drawings Joe. Is there any reason why a single plate couldn't be used for both the 4:1 and 3:1 ratios? Just rotate one bolt pattern by 36 degrees relative to the other. That might make the manufacturing of replacement plates more streamlined.

The only reason not to is that if you are making a bunch of them the price will be a bit higher. For ones and twos, the set up cost would swamp the extra machine time so it is likely that you could get all 10 holes for almost the same price as just 5.

You pays your money and you gets your choice...

Joe J.

[billbo911]

Team Update #9 is out. In it the Carrier plate is addressed. Currently BaneBots is in the process of manufacturing new parts. The method of distribution is being worked on.

Excerpt from Team Update #9
"...Replacement plates are currently being manufactured by BaneBots for all transmissions distributed to the FIRST community. These plates will be available and distributed to teams by BaneBots at no additional charge. We are currently working on a distribution method to insure that teams receive them promptly...."

[WaterFreak]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Team Update #9 is out. In it the Carrier plate is addressed. Currently BaneBots is in the process of manufacturing new parts. The method of distribution is being worked on.

Excerpt from Team Update #9
"...Replacement plates are currently being manufactured by BaneBots for all transmissions distributed to the FIRST community. These plates will be available and distributed to teams by BaneBots at no additional charge. We are currently working on a distribution method to insure that teams receive them promptly...."

YEAH, good news indeed :-)

[Doug G]

Just the news we're hoping for!!! Because they still haven't figured out distribution method, I figure teams will be making this fix at their first comp. I mean for teams to receive them by the end of next week, they'd have to ship out next Monday. Can they even make a couple thousand plates in less than a week?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Doug G

Just the news we're hoping for!!! Because they still haven't figured out distribution method, I figure teams will be making this fix at their first comp. I mean for teams to receive them by the end of next week, they'd have to ship out next Monday. Can they even make a couple thousand plates in less than a week?

Check your rule book. The FIX-IT WINDOW rules allow for teams to buy/manufacture spare parts and replacement parts. Since stronger carrier plates are obviously replacement parts, the ship deadline is obviously not as important. Especially considering this is an official FIRST replacement part. At worst, I can see FIRST distributing these at the regionals. I feel safe in saying that any team could replace both carrier plates in under an hour with a little help.

[Ricky Q.]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Check your rule book. The FIX-IT WINDOW rules allow for teams to buy/manufacture spare parts and replacement parts. Since stronger carrier plates are obviously replacement parts, the ship deadline is obviously not as important. Especially considering this is an official FIRST replacement part. At worst, I can see FIRST distributing these at the regionals. I feel safe in saying that any team could replace both carrier plates in under an hour with a little help.

Still only gives teams until the Friday after ship, 2/23.

The timing of these “FIX-IT WINDOWS” is at the discretion of the team, but all work must be completed by 5:00pm on the Friday following the ROBOT shipment deadline.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Ricky Q.

Still only gives teams until the Friday after ship, 2/23.

Keep reading.

<R22> During the “FIX-IT WINDOW” following each Regional Competition weekend: During this
period, all teams (not just those teams attending a Regional Competition) may utilize one or
two 5-hour FIX-IT-WINDOWS to manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE
PARTS and develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility (not at the competition
site). The timing of these “FIX-IT WINDOWS” is at the discretion of the team, but all work
must be completed between the opening of the Competition (at 8:30 am on the Thursday
of the Competition weekend)and 8:30 am on the Thursday following the Competition
weekend. At the conclusion of a regional competition event, teams may take a limited
amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or MECHANISMS back to their home
facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. The purpose of this rule is to allow
teams to make critical repairs to existing parts to enable them to compete in following
events. The intent of this rule is not to have teams take their entire ROBOT back home and
make large-scale revisions or upgrades to the ROBOT. Teams may manufacture and/or
repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the competition
event is limited (as specified in Rule <R31>).

That said, a competition-day switch wouldn't faze me in the least. I have empirical evidence that shows even a marketing major can tear a pair of these down and rebuild them in well under an hour with one allen key.

[Dick Linn]

1018 and 1020 steel can be hardened somewhat. The critical part is the rate of cooling, which is the reason for the salt and surfactants. The vapor barrier between the hot steel and the quenchant must be minimized. The Manganese content of the steel may also be a factor.

Another method is to use a high-pressure stream, as in the case of the process in U.S. patent # 3294599. This patent claims an increase in strength from 40-60,000 PSI to 155-250,000 PSI in steels having from .08 to .25 percent carbon content.

[esquared]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Keep reading.



That said, a competition-day switch wouldn't faze me in the least. I have empirical evidence that shows even a marketing major can tear a pair of these down and rebuild them in well under an hour with one allen key.

It's not the time required to disassemble the tranny to replace the plate. It's the time required to disassemble everything, get to, and remove the tranny that is a concern. Considering the number of teams who will still be getting their robot working during the day before/during practice rounds at the regional, having them at the regional will definitely cut into their time to get finished.