Banebot transmission no longer COTS?

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

According to the manual, such delays are excused and they are still legal parts.

Delays are excused: "Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused." Unavailability is not: "The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams." This is a permanent unavailability, not a delay.

I will not claim to be a materials-utilization-rules expert, but as I read this, the 256:1 gearbox which is no longer available now cannot be considered a COTS item, and wouldn't that mean that it is no longer legal for use by any team?

[Justin M.]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Delays are excused: "Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused." Unavailability is not: "The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams." This is a permanent unavailability, not a delay.

I will not claim to be a materials-utilization-rules expert, but as I read this, the 256:1 gearbox which is no longer available now cannot be considered a COTS item, and wouldn't that mean that it is no longer legal for use by any team?

They can't possibly be COTS items now. If our team was relying on these motors (and we sort of were), then it would hinder the completion of our robot. My guess is that to be a COTS item, it would need to be availible to any FIRST team during any period of the 6 week build season. It's the end of the 4th week and they are not availible, nor will they be availible in time for the end of the 2007 build season.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Delays are excused: "Such delays due to higher-than-normal order rates are excused." Unavailability is not: "The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams." This is a permanent unavailability, not a delay.

I will not claim to be a materials-utilization-rules expert, but as I read this, the 256:1 gearbox which is no longer available now cannot be considered a COTS item, and wouldn't that mean that it is no longer legal for use by any team?

Can someone Q&A this? My team's Q&A person claims it doesn't work for him.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Can someone Q&A this? My team's Q&A person claims it doesn't work for him.

Exactly what question do you want asked? The rules seem quite clear to me.

[Justin M.]

Question:
Are the Banebots 42mm, 256:1 Gearboxes FIRST legal?

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Justin M.

Question:
Are the Banebots 42mm, 256:1 Gearboxes FIRST legal?

I don't know if the people answering the Q&A would implicitly know that these parts are permanently out-of-stock, so it would be prudent to add that to the question if anyone is planning to post it.

A better question would be:
Are the Banebots 42mm, 256:1 Gearboxes, which are no longer available for purchase, FIRST legal?

[Dave Flowerday]

Sorry for the double-post, but I've been researching this a bit more. I found this from Update 2:

COTS ITEMS from ROBOTS entered in previous FIRST competitions or COTS ITEMS that are no longer commercially available may be used under the following conditions:
* The item must be unmodified, and still in its original condition as delivered from the VENDOR
* The item must not be a part custom made for the FIRST competition and provided in a previous FRC Kit Of Parts (e.g. 2006 FRC transmissions, custom-made motor couplers, custom sensor strips, IFI CMUcam II modules, etc. are not permitted)
* The item must satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2007 FIRST Robotics Competition

(Emphasis mine).

Unavailable COTS parts may be used if they satisfy ALL of the materials/parts use rules. This is where it gets sticky, because one of the materials/parts use rules is this:

Additional parts must be generally available from suppliers such that any other FIRST team, if it so desires, may also obtain them at the same price.

Certainly, the Banebots transmission now violates this rule. My team, for instance, cannot purchase one of these transmissions if we desire. Therefore my analysis is that they are illegal.

Anyone interpret things differently?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Sorry for the double-post, but I've been researching this a bit more. I found this from Update 2:

(Emphasis mine).

Unavailable COTS parts may be used if they satisfy ALL of the materials/parts use rules. This is where it gets sticky, because one of the materials/parts use rules is this:

Certainly, the Banebots transmission now violates this rule. My team, for instance, cannot purchase one of these transmissions if we desire. Therefore my analysis is that they are illegal.

Anyone interpret things differently?

Well, you can technically build the 256:1 gearbox out of the other ones. So, it is possible to make a 256:1 it out of COTS items even though they don't sell it.

EDIT: you can not make the 256:1 as there are no other 4 stage planetaries. However, given the wording of the rules above and their stance on the KOP banebots, I think they will be allowed.

Also, if that rule were followed, then all unavailable parts would be illegal because they aren't available. I think, because the updated rule says unavailable parts are allowable, they imply by saying "unavailable" that they don't have to be unavailable. There would be no point in an update if they expected it that way.

[ZZII 527]

I never understood the COTS definition to begin with. To me, "COTS ITEMS that are no longer commercially available" is already a contradiction, since the definition states "A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from the VENDOR, available from a non-team source, and available to all teams for purchase."

Here's another question. Suppose I open up a 42mm gearbox and temper the carrier plate. The rules now define this as a "custom part," explicitly not a COTS item. Does this change its legality?

And while I agree with the argument that teams depending on the 256:1 may now be at a disadvantage, what about teams that have already implemented one? If it suddenly becomes illegal, they will be at a significant disadvantage. And the fact that BaneBots is an official FIRST supplier leads me to believe that these teams were justified in assuming that the gearboxes would remain COTS items. (Sort of like ordering wheels from Skyway. If they ran out of a particular type of wheel mid-season because it happened to be perfect for the game this year, I doubt it would be made illegal.)

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by ZZII 527

And while I agree with the argument that teams depending on the 256:1 may now be at a disadvantage, what about teams that have already implemented one? If it suddenly becomes illegal, they will be at a significant disadvantage. And the fact that BaneBots is an official FIRST supplier leads me to believe that these teams were justified in assuming that the gearboxes would remain COTS items. (Sort of like ordering wheels from Skyway. If they ran out of a particular type of wheel mid-season because it happened to be perfect for the game this year, I doubt it would be made illegal.)

Exactly. My team is depending on three of them. We already have our motor mounts machined and they would have to be completely remade to accommodate another type of gearbox. We can't put more sprocket reduction because we already have the minimum input and the maximum output.

If these were suddenly declared illegal, our team would be set back a good deal and probably wouldn't be able to finish in time or ship as it would hold up the rest of assembly.