Is Defense key to this game?

[akshar]

Defense will be very important this year. But offense will win games. its as simple as that. a defensive bot, unless they have a ramp that their alliance partners can climb on to is useful, but not as much as a decent offensive bot. Besides, i think we will see many robots which are 4 feet off the ground, 120 lbs, and an offensive bot. these bots, wont be as easily pushed by the defensive bots as the 100lbs bots.

what its going to come down to is how your alliance can play the game against the opposing alliance.
scouting=will be as important as ever.

[Mike Norton]

And if it has an arm, then it is technically not a defensive bot. .

We have a arm and we are a very Offense/Defense robot.

I Think Defense is a very big thing this year. But to just have a ramp might be a down fall for many. If I was on a team that did not have a ramp bot than we would make sure the other team if they have a ramp not be able to get to it in time.


The plan would be score quick then make sure the other team does not get on a ramp. Strong robots will be able to move ramp bots so be careful of strong robots.

[Arefin Bari]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

I applaud, no, embrace with open arms people who pick on Adam (I need someone in ATL to throw him in the fountain btw, PM me if your interested) along with others on the FIRSTcast team. Push us.

... Adam, fix your shoooteerr!!!!!!!!!

ok, now about the topic. I think both will be very important. A good offensive robot is going to score fast and a good defensive robot is going to stop offesive bots from scoring. Isn't that the case most of the time? But like someone said earlier, we won't know until we start rackin n' rollin. =)

[Kim Masi]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

When were at nationals I think we'll see the game a lot differently. When both alliances are able to get 2 robots off the ground 12" fairly efficiently, tubes are what is going to win the match.

I agree. I was talking about this with a mentor yesterday. However, the discussion at hand is defense. To quote Forrest Gump "Defense is as defense does sir"

Not that that quote helps in my point, but defense is a strong aspect of the FIRST competition, and the FIRST makes a point in saying that their games are highly interactive.

And as Jess said, it's too early to tell, but we'll see soon

[Dan Richardson]

While I believe defense and offense are both important each will have its place. Especially with the ramps this year. Most ramp style bots I assume will be playing defense until the final stages of a match where they will unfold and everyone will scramble for the 60 points bonus.

But in finals when the alliances are formed, what good is it to have more than 1 ramp other than maybe redundancy? The Exploding Minotaur construction is planning to have ramps, ( right now its coming down to ramps or some more effective sensory arrays ) but we also decided to go 5' 110 lbs. The reason was b/c last year 1902 was 102 lbs and was still able to play extremely effective defense. If you have a solid drive train you can play defense whoever or where ever you are. So yes strategic defense will be important, and so will be having those ramps.

It was just in our evaluation of the polls taken on delphi that when ~ 70% of the pollers said they were going to have ramps that we would concentrate on a good arm. I think at most regionals atleast 8 ramp bots will exist, and in picking for finals thats really all you need ( if thats all you do ).

I personally am excited with the way 179's bot performs from the video I've seen and you have come up in our discussions many times of strategy/scenarios. Its is a very effective way to make sure you are very highly seeded in qualifying. However if you were doing the picking, I believe it would be silly to pick another good ramp? Do you Disagree?

[Cody Carey]

The notion that a scorer can score over a defensive bot of any kind is ridiculous. If that bot can move, It can keep you from scoring. The smallest height possible, 4', covers one spider leg, and makes it nigh impossible to score on another. That is with the defensive bot sitting still in front of the spider leg(s). Our robot will score on the bottom rung, get the ramp points in the end, and play a mean defense when that is needed. I have a feeling that bots who follow our strategy will be highly successful in this years game.


I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.


Defense will be key in this years game... just like in any game before it.


P.S. We (arguably) won the Philly regional last year with defense.

[David]

defense plays a large role, but in actual competition an efficient offense will win over a strong defense. In fact two years ago, 2005, the nation champions actually avoided other bots.

[waialua359]

this year's game is more like 2005 than 2006. teams should have a defensive robot.
We learned from experience in the finals at the vegas regional against the gila monsters (championship finalist) and the high rollers 987 who had a third defensive robot that messed us up big time when trying to score tetras. We had 3 B++/A-- robots while they had 2 A robots and one F robot in terms of scoring (not their focus). They still beat us out.
On our way to the finals, we simply just outscored other teams, until an annoying bot (hehe.....) kept messing with us trying to score.

Because the camera will be less efffective compared to 2006 in helping teams score (unlike locking in and scoring more than one 7" nerf balls), defense can wreak havoc more effectively this year.

[Swampdude]

Originally Posted by Stud Man Dan

I personally am excited with the way 179's bot performs from the video I've seen and you have come up in our discussions many times of strategy/scenarios. Its is a very effective way to make sure you are very highly seeded in qualifying. However if you were doing the picking, I believe it would be silly to pick another good ramp? Do you Disagree?

2 ramps in a final alliance makes no sense. Personally if I were picking from our teams perspective, we'd want 2 cappers that could climb aboard, and 1 of those I'd prefer could also switch to Defense depending on the lead we take. However we hope to be one of the top scorers also, even though it is on 1 row (1 is all you need )

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Kim Masi

I agree. I was talking about this with a mentor yesterday. However, the discussion at hand is defense. To quote Forrest Gump "Defense is as defense does sir"

Not that that quote helps in my point, but defense is a strong aspect of the FIRST competition, and the FIRST makes a point in saying that their games are highly interactive.

And as Jess said, it's too early to tell, but we'll see soon

Im not 100% that forrest gump said that...could just be a bad memory though :-P

[Adare180]

regardless of who said it, the quote speaks truth.

each year, it seams as if first is aiming towards a more offensive game, but still, defense will be key in a strong alliance. the high scoring bots will be scoring the tubes as the defense will be keeping them from performing their duty. I personally think the end game will have a huge impact on the result of each match, especially in the final rounds. a good performing, consistant rampbot will be needed in each allaince, but as previously stated, each alliance only needs one.

[Gabe]

Good defense will seperate weak offense from superior offense.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

The notion that a scorer can score over a defensive bot of any kind is ridiculous. If that bot can move, It can keep you from scoring. The smallest height possible, 4', covers one spider leg, and makes it nigh impossible to score on another. That is with the defensive bot sitting still in front of the spider leg(s).

That notion is not ridiculous by any means on the imagination. While I agree that a vast majority of bots will not be able to do it effecitvely, several of the upper tier of teams will probably have that capability. And there is no guarantee that the defensive bot (no matter how powerful) will have the ability to move the offensive one, or will even be oriented correctly to do so (as he may be, as swampdude has decribed, oriented in order to strafe in front of the goal). There is also no guarantee that the defensive bot will be 4' tall (and if it is, in many situations, it could just be scored over for the upper two levels).

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.

While some aspects of this statement are typically true (namely rotational defense by attacking a bots corner), they are not always. Particularly shutting down a powerhouse offensive team with a drivable base. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to outrun a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to push around a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have features to try and prevent rotational motion (and many teams have for years). Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have turrets to rapidly adjust for rotational motion that may occur (I can't wait to see what 27 comes up with this year ). If the opposing alliance can commit a large enough defensive effort to any of these upper tier bots, good luck for them scoring enough to win.


As was alluded in this thread earlier, if you're playing defense (at least the type discussed in this thread), it means you're not scoring. By the pure definition of defense (not the type mentioned in this thread), the offensive bot is also playing defense then (by forcing the other alliance to commit a bot(s) to defense, you're reducing their total possible score). This kind of "counter-offense" is evident through statistics from previous years.
For example, 1261 was by no dream of the imagination a defensive team. They were a pure offensive team, with a fast swerve and long-range shooter. Yet, pre-championship, they were ranked (statistically) as the 51st best defensive team, only allowing 20.33 points/match. By contrast, team 306 (sorry to pick on you Cody), a self-admitted defensive team (and quite a good one at that) was ranked 869th, allowing 39.39 points/match.
Some other primarily offensive teams of note, 1114 was ranked 195th, allowing 26.08 points/match, 254 was 136 @ 24.5 points/match, 968 was 67th at 21.13 points/match, and 384 was 86th with 22.4 points/match. Some other of the top notch defensive teams were 710 ranked 861st allowing 39 pts/match, 522 was ranked 750th with 35.81 pts/match, 1816 was ranked 883rd allowing 39.67 pts/match, and 1902 was ranked 629th allowing 33.54 pts/match. What does this mean? Even during a game that had a huge emphasis on actual contact defense, the best defense is often a strong offense.
Now this will be especially true this year, as every spider leg scored reduces your opponents top potential score for that row and that column by a factor of 2. Additionally, spoilers may or may not play a large roll (their importance will probably grow later in the season, and later in each tournament), and are placed by teams that have the capability to place ringers (and more legs you can score on, more flexibility those teams have in placing them).

As for who is ultimately right in this debate, only time will tell. Without a doubt, scores will be low during the first couple weeks (which may or may not be due to defense). Without a doubt, defensive bots will find large roles in all the East Coast regionals. Without a doubt, at IRI and Championship there will be a shift towards a more offensive alliance (which does not mean higher scores). Without a doubt, a smart "defensive" team (such as the robots displayed by 179, 306, and a few others so far) will have a very prominant OFFENSIVE role when all is said and done (and not just through bonus points).

[Brandon Holley]

lillavery,
awesome awesome data....that is some of the most undisputable evidence ive seen of offense vs defense ever

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

While I agree that a vast majority of bots will not be able to do it effectively, several of the upper tier of teams will probably have that capability. And there is no guarantee that the defensive bot (no matter how powerful) will have the ability to move the offensive one, or will even be oriented correctly to do so (as he may be, as swampdude has decribed, oriented in order to strafe in front of the goal). There is also no guarantee that the defensive bot will be 4' tall (and if it is, in many situations, it could just be scored over for the upper two levels).

There is also no guarantee that the offensive robot won't explode. Things are just very unlikely to ever line up that way. Just as they are very unlikely to ever line up to be totally in the offensive bot's favor. I don't know who you are referring to as "the upper tier" of teams, but unless they are magic, they are going to have a hard time finding a wheel that can transfer torque much better than the AM does. We have done extensive testing, and had great results with them. A robot won’t just sit still as you score over its head. Unless they have a failure of some sort, and can't move.

Let me rephrase my initial comment:

The notion of a robot sitting still while you score over its head is ludicrous. It just won't happen.
Bottom line is that if our robot is ever caught between an offensive scorer and the rack; the scorer won't score.
We've tested this with previous years' bots, and I know it to be true. I would assume it would be true for any halfway decent defensive bot.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Particularly shutting down a powerhouse offensive team with a drivable base. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to outrun a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to push around a kitbot, easy.

Why do you make the assumption that no "upper tier" teams will try for a ramp/defensive bot? If you ask me, we've had a harder time designing an effective and redundant ramp than any manipulator we've ever done.

A defense/Ramp bot won't always be the underdog/noob. That is an assumption that shouldn't be made, and will get your team into strategic trouble later on. Our 2007 robot, for example, has a custom drivetrain that will give any robot a run for it's money. It also has a consistent ramp, and a low-scoring arm.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have features to try and prevent rotational motion (and many teams have for years). Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have turrets to rapidly adjust for rotational motion that may occur (I can't wait to see what 27 comes up with this year ).

Many teams tried to implement the rotational motion stops last year, too. How well did that work?
How about those plentiful and effective turrets from last year? Call me a pessimist, but I just don't see it happening.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

If the opposing alliance can commit a large enough defensive effort to any of these upper tier bots, good luck for them scoring enough to win.

Once again with the assumptions about team quality and function... I just don't get it.

Brandon, there is no "undisputable evidence" either way, and
arguing defense/offense is a droll thing to do, as depending on the situation, either could be called for. That is why we designed our robot to be able to do both. To design your robot for one or the other is a mistake.Offensive robots will do OK, and defensive robots will do OK, but flexible robots will win.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.