Go to Post IMHO, [the driver's] job is to drive the robot. The coaches job is to monitor everything in a match that isn't your robot. - CalTran [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Kit & Additional Hardware
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-02-2007, 11:23
Oumonkey's Avatar
Oumonkey Oumonkey is offline
Master of the If statement
AKA: Josh Tyus
FRC #1555 (Pulse)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Monon, IN
Posts: 50
Oumonkey has a spectacular aura aboutOumonkey has a spectacular aura about
Back-up Battery question

Hello,
I've been told that new yellow back-up battery is all we are allowed to use for the regionals. I want to know if that is true, but I have been searching for a place to buy them and I can't seem to find anyplace. Ifirobotics only has the blue ones, and I am unsure which kind we are allowed to use. I went throught the manuals and didn't see anything. I looked though CD and I didn't find anything either. So I guess my question is are we allowed to use the blue back-up battery? And if not where can I purchase the yellow ones. I'm sorry if this is somewhere obvious, but I just can't seem to find any information.

Thanks
Josh
__________________
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-02-2007, 12:16
Vikesrock's Avatar
Vikesrock Vikesrock is online now
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,305
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Back-up Battery question

According to rule R73:
Quote:
<R73> The 7.2V Robot Control backup battery must be connected to the Robot Controller as described in the Robot Controller manual. The 7.2v battery should be charged to at least 7.0v before entering a match. As a replacement for the FIRST supplied battery, any other commercially available 7.2V NiCad battery pack may be used.
So you can use any 7.2V NiCad battery including the blue one available for purchase from IFI.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-02-2007, 12:17
Unsung FIRST Hero
Mike Betts Mike Betts is offline
Electrical Engineer
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Homosassa, FL
Posts: 1,442
Mike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

You received a blue backup battery in your KOP. The intended purpose is so that you can use it on your robot.

Also:

Quote:
<R73> The 7.2V Robot Control backup battery must be connected to the Robot Controller as described in the Robot Controller manual. The 7.2v battery should be charged to at least 7.0v before entering a match. As a replacement for the FIRST supplied battery, any other commercially available 7.2V NiCad battery pack may be used.
__________________
Mike Betts

Alumnus, Team 3518, Panthrobots, 2011
Alumnus, Team 177, Bobcat Robotics, 1995 - 2010
LRI, Connecticut Regional, 2007-2010
LRI, WPI Regional, 2009 - 2010
RI, South Florida Regional, 2012 - 2013

As easy as 355/113...
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-02-2007, 12:23
Vikesrock's Avatar
Vikesrock Vikesrock is online now
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,305
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Betts View Post
You received a blue backup battery in your KOP. The intended purpose is so that you can use it on your robot.
Some teams (such as mine) received a yellow backup battery in their kits. I believe this is what led to the confusion.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-02-2007, 12:37
RyanN's Avatar
RyanN RyanN is offline
RyanN
AKA: Ryan Nazaretian
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,127
RyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond reputeRyanN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

But!!!! you must use the supplied charger in the Kit of Parts! None of you guys included that, so I thought I should. And yes, I do recommend getting a larger capacity battery, and using it the whole day, and charging it overnight at competition.
__________________
Taking a break from mentoring for a few years. (Is that allowed?!?)

Controls Mentor
@rnazaretian

Previous teams:
Team Fusion, FRC 364
Garnet Squadron, FRC 4901
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-02-2007, 02:37
Danny Diaz's Avatar
Danny Diaz Danny Diaz is offline
Smooth Operator
AKA: FrankenMentor
None #0418
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 545
Danny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Danny Diaz
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanN View Post
But!!!! you must use the supplied charger in the Kit of Parts! None of you guys included that, so I thought I should.
Now that I do not believe is true. It is completely true that you must use the supplied charger in the kit of parts for the main 12v battery, but you do not have to use the supplied charger for the backup battery so long as your backup battery charger is still safe. The reason being that the backup battery you might have may not have a compatible adaptor for the [supplied] charger, and it would be extremely silly to require you to create an adaptor to fit just for charging.

-Danny
__________________
Danny Diaz
Former Lead Technical Mentor, FRC 418
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-02-2007, 06:48
Unsung FIRST Hero
Mike Betts Mike Betts is offline
Electrical Engineer
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: Homosassa, FL
Posts: 1,442
Mike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond reputeMike Betts has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Diaz View Post
...but you do not have to use the supplied charger for the backup battery so long as your backup battery charger is still safe...
Danny,

Your point is well taken but is not supported by exact interpretation of the rules.

Quote:
<R56> The 7.2v backup battery may be charged on or off the ROBOT. When off the ROBOT, the battery is to be charged with the provided 7.2V backup battery charger.
This is one of the FIRST rules which is largely non-enforceable. I also agree that, from an engineering standpoint, there are many better solutions than the provided charger. This is particularly true of "smart" chargers which monitor the state of charge of the battery (they utilize an embedded microcontroller and look for the minus dv/dt "bump") and adjust the charging current accordingly.

As it stands right now, few inspectors will walk the pits looking at your NiCad chargers. However, if pressed, they would have little choice than to quote <R56>.

I invite you to air your concerns on the FIRST Q&A. Only by airing these concerns to FIRST will we get the rules changed.

That's JMHO...

Mike
__________________
Mike Betts

Alumnus, Team 3518, Panthrobots, 2011
Alumnus, Team 177, Bobcat Robotics, 1995 - 2010
LRI, Connecticut Regional, 2007-2010
LRI, WPI Regional, 2009 - 2010
RI, South Florida Regional, 2012 - 2013

As easy as 355/113...
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2007, 13:27
Danny Diaz's Avatar
Danny Diaz Danny Diaz is offline
Smooth Operator
AKA: FrankenMentor
None #0418
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 545
Danny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Danny Diaz
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Betts View Post
Danny,

Your point is well taken but is not supported by exact interpretation of the rules ... I invite you to air your concerns on the FIRST Q&A. Only by airing these concerns to FIRST will we get the rules changed.
Concern aired. Hopefully I'll get an answer.

-Danny
__________________
Danny Diaz
Former Lead Technical Mentor, FRC 418
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2007, 13:35
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,798
Al Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Danny,
Mike gave you the answer, I am afraid. The robot rules are very specific. I prefer to inspect robots in their pit as do many other inspectors. This prevents a pile up at the weighin and size stations and it gives us a chance to make students feel a little more comfortable. I like to check out the pit and see chargers, extra compressors and safety violations that may have been missed by the safety people. It's all part of the full service.
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Storming the Tower since 1996.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-02-2007, 01:49
Danny Diaz's Avatar
Danny Diaz Danny Diaz is offline
Smooth Operator
AKA: FrankenMentor
None #0418
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 545
Danny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond reputeDanny Diaz has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Danny Diaz
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Mike gave you the answer, I am afraid. The robot rules are very specific.
Yeah, I understand why the rule is there, but now I have to run out and find one of those funky connectors for the charger so I can charge our COTS NiCad battery as well as the provided NiCad battery. The Q&A gave a definitive answer for me - after reading Mike's response I knew what the answer would be, but I had to ask anyway.

Thanks!
-Danny
__________________
Danny Diaz
Former Lead Technical Mentor, FRC 418
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-02-2007, 07:20
Billfred's Avatar
Billfred Billfred is offline
...and you can't! teach! that!
FRC #5402 (Iron Kings); no team (AndyMark)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: The Land of the Kokomese, IN
Posts: 8,563
Billfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Diaz View Post
Now that I do not believe is true. It is completely true that you must use the supplied charger in the kit of parts for the main 12v battery (snip)
Not quite, but close. (Emphasis in rule my own.)

Quote:
<R54> The ES17-12 can only be charged between matches by a 6-ampere rated automatic battery
charger. When recharging the Kit Of Parts batteries, either the charger provided by FIRST
or an automatic charger with an equivalent charging current rating may be used.
__________________
William "Billfred" Leverette - Gamecock/Jessica Boucher victim/Marketing & Sales Specialist at AndyMark

2004-2006: FRC 1293 (D5 Robotics) - Student, Mentor, Coach
2007-2009: FRC 1618 (Capital Robotics) - Mentor, Coach
2009-2013: FRC 2815 (Los Pollos Locos) - Mentor, Coach - Palmetto '09, Peachtree '11, Palmetto '11, Palmetto '12
2010: FRC 1398 (Keenan Robo-Raiders) - Mentor - Palmetto '10
2014-2016: FRC 4901 (Garnet Squadron) - Co-Founder and Head Bot Coach - Orlando '14, SCRIW '16
2017-: FRC 5402 (Iron Kings) - Mentor

94 events (more than will fit in a ChiefDelphi signature), 14 seasons, over 61,000 miles, and still on a mission from Bob.

Rule #1: Do not die. Rule #2: Be respectful. Rule #3: Be safe. Rule #4: Follow the handbook.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2007, 00:28
Donut Donut is offline
The Arizona Mentor
AKA: Andrew
FRC #2662 (RoboKrew)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Goodyear, AZ
Posts: 1,311
Donut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Just to clarify, not only are you limited to the 2007 charger for this year's back-up battery, you're limited to that charger for ALL your back-up batteries you use this year.

Quote:
Yes, battery chargers from prior years would be illegal for charging the 2007 back-up battery.

Yes, the back-up battery (either the one supplied, or a permitted COTS back-up battery) must be charged with ONLY the 2007 charger or IFI-defined charger circuit, as specified in Rule <R56>.
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=4853

Make sure to charge your back-ups to full before the competition!
__________________
FRC Team 498 (Peoria, AZ), Student: 2004 - 2007
FRC Team 498 (Peoria, AZ), Mentor: 2008 - 2011
FRC Team 167 (Iowa City, IA), Mentor: 2012 - 2014
FRC Team 2662 (Tolleson, AZ), Mentor: 2014 - Present
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2007, 01:15
eugenebrooks eugenebrooks is offline
Team Role: Engineer
AKA: Dr. Brooks
no team (WRRF)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 601
eugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond reputeeugenebrooks has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut View Post
Just to clarify, not only are you limited to the 2007 charger for this year's back-up battery, you're limited to that charger for ALL your back-up batteries you use this year.



http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=4853

Make sure to charge your back-ups to full before the competition!
You only need two backup batteries. One in the robot, and one on the charger. If you change the backup battery when you change the main battery, and keep the swapped out backup battery on the charger, you will never fall behind on the charge of the backup battery. Don't leave the backup battery on the supplied KOP charger overnight. It will overheat it.

It is useful to use the 15 amp power pole connector on the backup battery. By using this connector on the battery, the robot, and on the charger, you will avoid problems with intermittent connections.

Eugene
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2007, 08:09
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDC
Yes, battery chargers from prior years would be illegal for charging the 2007 back-up battery.

Yes, the back-up battery (either the one supplied, or a permitted COTS back-up battery) must be charged with ONLY the 2007 charger or IFI-defined charger circuit, as specified in Rule <R56>.
QI'yaH!

For those of you who don't speak Klingon, that's an expression of dismay. To put it mildly. The 2007 charger doesn't indicate when the battery is fully charged, nor does it stop charging before the battery is overcharged. That settles it -- we're using the onboard charger. We'll also be pulling the breaker supplying it when the robot is not in use.

Last edited by Alan Anderson : 16-02-2007 at 08:12.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-02-2007, 11:41
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,599
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Back-up Battery question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
The 2007 charger doesn't indicate when the battery is fully charged, nor does it stop charging before the battery is overcharged. That settles it -- we're using the onboard charger. We'll also be pulling the breaker supplying it when the robot is not in use.
I asked a question about the backup battery charger on the Q/A a few days ago. I pointed out that an overcharged battery is a safety hazard.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
battery question hiimcristhian General Forum 6 09-02-2007 11:38
Battery question CraigHickman Electrical 9 23-10-2006 21:55
Back-up battery charging circuit from IFI Don Wright Electrical 19 02-05-2006 20:41
Back up battery Jeremy General Forum 3 25-02-2004 09:56
Looking for Back up Battery? PMGRACER Kit & Additional Hardware 11 16-01-2004 12:15


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:04.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi