To extend or not to extend the ship date!

[johnr]

geeez....and i was going to say they should knock a week off the build season. less thinking, more building.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by redbarron

...in order to program you need a running assembled robot,...

With this, at least, I disagree strongly. For several years in a row, we've had usable software ready well before the robot was assembled. A lot of the "fancy" programming can be written and debugged using a simulator or testbed. For tweaking PID constants and presets you do need an actual robot, but much programming is possible without one. For some problems, all you need is time.

[FIXIT]

Thanks everyone for responding to this post.

Let me summarize the results of this post. The problem presented here is real. Some teams get 6 full weeks to build their robot and some don’t. Some teams live in beautiful climates and some don’t. Some teams have more resources than they know what to do with and some have very few resources.

Overall, FIRST is a reflection of the real world. There are companies that have resources: money, great facilities, and a pool of engineering talent available to jump in and tackle any challenge. At the same time, some companies are limited to the resources and talent available in their immediate family. They are the Mom and Pop operations that make up the backbone of our socio-economic culture!

So, what does all this mean? It means that we have an uneven playing field. This is not going to change, and it is something we have to get used to. After all, we live in a competitive world, and the strongest make it to the top. That’s what makes FIRST such a great operation. With FIRST, everyone gets a chance to participate in a wonderful experience that encourages young people to get involved in technology, regardless of their level of experience. FIRST is a learning tool for all.

Now, here is the real dilemma with this weather issue: Some teams are faced with it and others are not. It would be very hard for a Florida team to understand how important a snow plow is during a blizzard. It would be very difficult for a California team to visualize a car hung up on a 3 foot snow drift. I might add that it would be difficult for someone in Ohio to explain what living through a hurricane and flooding is like. We live in different parts of the country and do not face the same weather conditions.

Something else we need to keep in mind is that not all teams are equally blessed with resources. Many of the smaller teams (most FIRST teams) have to rely on the schools to be open in order to get anything done. If the schools are closed, nothing gets worked on. No matter how much you plan for the weather, many students from an urban/rural setting do not have a way to communicate with other team members nor do they have a place to meet outside of school.

So, what do we do to make it fair?

FIRST is not about winning. It’s about transforming a culture, it’s about Gracious Professionalism. According to Woodie Flowers, “In the long run, Gracious Professionalism is part of pursuing a meaningful life. One can add to society and enjoy the satisfaction of knowing one has acted with integrity and sensitivity.” If this is the case, then what do we do for the teams that have lost 5-10 build days? How do we act with “integrity and sensitivity” toward this issue?

Several solutions to this problem have been offered. Any one of them will help level the playing field to some degree. Of course, nothing will be perfect, but at least it is an attempt at doing the right thing. Here is a summary of some interesting thoughts and possible solutions that have been posted on this thread:

1. I would love an extension… (chris31)
2. work-till-you-drop-athons on saturdays before shipdate (65 Xero Huskie)
3. Pretty much unless there is so much snow you can't open your front door you can get to where you need to build a robot. Extending shipdate is definitely not an option though for obvious reasons. Extending the "fix-it" window sounds like a great idea though. (techtiger1)
4. If the weather is bad enough to shut down FedEx, I can definitely understand an extension from Manchester. (Billfred)
5. I say that the shipping date should be extended. (rohit)
6. …with good project management, teams can plan for snowstorms. Hurricanes, tornadoes & flooding are much worse... but a little snow never shuts down the northeast. (Kims Robot)
7. If you are that team that lost 10 days of school thus couldn't work at all on your bot (or any number), FIRST should be able to extend your ship date by that amount. (d.courtney)
8. To meet the existing timeline for regionals getting more than a day simply doesn't work logistically. (Peter Matteson)
9. I think it is unfair that FIRST is refusing to extend the ship date, even if it was by 2 or 3 days, it would help a great amount. (Tiger963)
10. Personally, I think FIRST should allow some more fix-it-window time, but not extend the deadline. (Lil’ Lavery)
11. What FIRST needs is a system that allows everyone 6 weeks, not 6 weeks of fine weather at FIRST HQ, but 6 weeks where you live...(d.courtney)
12. …the only time FIRST should extend is when the shipping company can not pick up the crate on the 20th…(ALIBI)
13. I think a extension of the ship date is a fair decision. (redbarron)
14. The mayor of Cleveland told Clevelanders to say inside and not to come out because it was a weather emergency. (Wickedclown1)
15. …FIRST might consider extending the ship dates of teams who were affected. Either that, or allow specific teams at regionals an extension in their pit times,…(Vashts6583)
16. It was reported that this was the worst blizzard since the late 1970s. Purdue even canceled classes and all operations for 1.5 days, which is EXTREMELY rare. (Michael Hill)
17. Honestly, we would love to have extra time to build, but that's because we drag our feet. No one else is to blame, not even the weather. (billbo911)
18. Should we be given an extension because our school does not allow 24/7 access. We made it both years. Oh and by the way any metal work had to be done with hand tools only. (kawelch)
19. I am not complaining about any of the fine people that help out FIRST or the FIRST staff or anyone... I am just pointing out that this year we have an unprecedented amount of issues...(Bob Steele)
20. geeez....and i was going to say they should knock a week off the build season. less thinking, more building. (johnr)

In summary, most agree that there is a problem. The solution is not an easy one. All we can hope for is FIRST to make the right decision and truly make this a great experience for all!

We are not asking for the playing field to be completely level. We simply want to be able to get to the game!

Thanks!

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

1. FIRST has extended the date before for weather... in that case it was primarily a big Eastern storm... We were given 2 extra days to ship.
This was about 3 years ago as I recall. I seem to remember it happening twice as a matter of fact.... so for those that seem to think that it can't happen because FIRST will not do it... they already have done it..

It did happen twice, in fact. In 2004, teams were given two extra days because of all of the KOP packing snafus. It certainly helped 1293 out, although we weren't affected.

One thing that should probably be noted is that robots have come together under far worse conditions. Might I note, for the record, then-rookies 1396 at the Championship in 2004? They came to Atlanta on Thursday morning to find an empty pit--no crate. By the time the pits closed that night, they had a box on wheels in motion. I should further emphasize that this was pre-Kitbot FIRST. What's more, they finished around the middle of the Archimedes division, which was pretty stacked that year (including stacked with the eventual world champions). If it can be done under those conditions in 12 hours, it can be done in most any situation.

You build the best robot you can with your resources, time included.

[mrs. p]

and just out from the email blast --

Greetings Team Shipping Contacts:

We want to remind you all again that Robot Ship Deadline is: Tuesday, February 20th, 2007.

FIRST requires verification of the shipment of each team’s robot crate for the initial shipment only. Teams are required to adhere to the rules and the robot shipping deadline. All teams are responsible for tracking their robot crate(s) to ensure that it has arrived at its destination on time.

Please follow the instructions below for your chosen initial shipment method:.......

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Billfred

One thing that should probably be noted is that robots have come together under far worse conditions. Might I note, for the record, then-rookies 1396 at the Championship in 2004? They came to Atlanta on Thursday morning to find an empty pit--no crate. By the time the pits closed that night, they had a box on wheels in motion. I should further emphasize that this was pre-Kitbot FIRST. What's more, they finished around the middle of the Archimedes division, which was pretty stacked that year (including stacked with the eventual world champions). If it can be done under those conditions in 12 hours, it can be done in most any situation.

While this is impressive, it was by no means accomplished alone. I can't find the original account, but many many teams turned out to help with the "One Day Wonder." So take comfort in that if you must ship a box of parts, every team with man power to spare (and some who don't have manpower to spare) will be there to help you out.

[Jetgrindradio00]

I remember when FIRST extended the ship date back in 2004 due to poor weather back east. Even though we are a SoCal team (50 degree weather is considered freezing cold ), the 2 extra days helped us out a lot. They postponed the date not because the eastcoast teams weren't able to finish, but because the shipping company was unable to pick up the crates in time. So the only way they will posepone it this year is if the weather is too bad for the shipping company to do their work.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by d.courtney

Saying they shouldn't simply because in the "business world" you can't get out of deadlines that easy is silly. FIRST isn't trying to emulate the business world, they are trying to inspire young kids, if they were going to emulate the business world...

I have to disagree here... I wasnt talking about business like financial institutions, I meant like an engineering business. If Harris is late on a shipment because we closed the plant on a snowday, our customer doesnt care. We have a contract with them, and we will likely incur penalties. Part of FIRST is learning to deal with LIFE. LIFE has snowstorms, ice storms, hurricanes, etc. Think back to Katrina, there were teams that just couldnt compete because they had no school left. Now think of your snow day... does it compare?

Let me remind you of one of my favorite quotes by Woodie...

“…It’s like life. You never have enough information. You never have enough time. The kit of materials is what you have in the warehouse. There are always competing things and you must have a strategy. We’ve created a microcosm of the real engineering experience.”
~Woodie Flowers
Co-Founder FIRST
Robotics Competition

I really dont get why a few days of snow is such a big deal... Are we all losing our thick skins? Does everything in life have to be fair? I for one am looking forward to ship date being ship date... sure we could use a few extra days, but everyone always could. Lets do the best with what we have and get to the fun part!

[JaneYoung]

Team 418 missed several days in the 3rd week of build (I think it was).

I know that if we were to extend the ship date even 2 more days, exhaustion would be taking a very heavy toll on the team. Likely more time would be spent contending with that than making good progress/headway. We have spent time over the past few days discussing how to handle the final days before ship, ship, and what our options are at LSR. We will continue to think, discuss, plan. It is part of the process as always.

On a personal note, I'm very sorry all of the weather has impacted so many teams and I am hoping that everyone has been safe. This 6 weeks has been quite an adventure.

[1768]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

With this, at least, I disagree strongly. For several years in a row, we've had usable software ready well before the robot was assembled. A lot of the "fancy" programming can be written and debugged using a simulator or testbed. For tweaking PID constants and presets you do need an actual robot, but much programming is possible without one. For some problems, all you need is time.

Bold mine.
This is true, if you have the access to and expertise required to use said simulator and/or testbed. This makes it difficult to impossible for younger teams to try anything complicated programming-wise.
This is not so much an issue with games like Aim High. Our team went for the low goal, lined up the robot with dead reckoning, and were fairly successful. This year, in Rack n' Roll, if we're lucky we'll get our code to work in the time we have. There's no "easy route" other than sitting out autonomous entirely.

[mathking]

Just this evening I was wondering aloud when we went from "doing pretty well" to "too far behind." One of the mentors reminded me that if it were Monday (the 4 days we missed) we'd think we were good to go. Then we laughed and noted that many of the best memories I have from FIRST were scrambling to get something done. So we'll make the best of it and have fun.

Just for the record, people in Ohio may not know hurricanes, but we know flooding. Too well.

[Protronie]

Extending the ship date is a cop out. In the business world you have deadlines and there are penalties for missing your deadline.
I also feel FIRST should hold the shipper's feet to the fire as hard as they hold the teams. Extending for any reason is unacceptable.
If you live in an area where bad weather can be expected then maybe you should have put forth the intense effort at the beginning of the build season as you do towards the last few days. Something to think about next year... do as much as you can as soon as you can... getting done early is aways a good thing.

Now as for this year... I totally agree that the time at the events should be extended so teams that shipped less than complete robots will have a chance to finish their robot. This sort of thing also happens often especially in auto racing.

Teams working around the clock in shifts is the best way I see as making productive use of limit time. One or two people trying to stay awake for 24 plus hrs only ask for mistakes and accidents. Break the work needed up... make work crews and work shifts then go to it.

Good luck to the teams that will be shipping robots in need of a few last bolts and congrats to the teams that have been practicing with their robots for the last few days.
I hope all remember the lessons learned.

[234smidget]

I do understand why it would be nice to to rescheldule the due date but like other members have said deadlines are part of our lives and we cant just change them because some things have come up it is a big pain to deal with some stressful teammates so it would be nice to have a few extra days.


*To the teams that are set back because of the weather...maybe its a good time to stay the night at the school(if allowed)...creating more time for the team to work on the robot and for teamates to bond with other teammates.*

[234smidget]

How many teams are effected by the weather....??? i know new york and indiana had snow...and Cyberblue234 cancelled one meeting because of weather..

[dancingfool]

A wise person once told me that quality work is done under pressure!