Is Defense key to this game?

[Swampdude]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

For example, 1261 was by no dream of the imagination a defensive team. They were a pure offensive team, with a fast swerve and long-range shooter. Yet, pre-championship, they were ranked (statistically) as the 51st best defensive team, only allowing 20.33 points/match. By contrast, team 306 (sorry to pick on you Cody), a self-admitted defensive team (and quite a good one at that) was ranked 869th, allowing 39.39 points/match.
Some other primarily offensive teams of note, 1114 was ranked 195th, allowing 26.08 points/match, 254 was 136 @ 24.5 points/match, 968 was 67th at 21.13 points/match, and 384 was 86th with 22.4 points/match. Some other of the top notch defensive teams were 710 ranked 861st allowing 39 pts/match, 522 was ranked 750th with 35.81 pts/match, 1816 was ranked 883rd allowing 39.67 pts/match, and 1902 was ranked 629th allowing 33.54 pts/match. What does this mean? Even during a game that had a huge emphasis on actual contact defense, the best defense is often a strong offense.

I very much appreciate what your saying, and normally I'd agree completely. However I don't think this assesment is completely accurate. The defensive bots your metioning didn't have the capability of high scores. So they had to play more defense, and hence were not as much of a distraction during their "offensive periods". That % slant came from the offensive/defensive periods. If I wanted to commit to defense the whole match and forfiet shooting 3 pointers, I deffinitely am losing ground, thats a no brainer.
In this game however, 1 defensive bot can take 2 offensive bots potential scoring from 12 ringers down to 4 and thats actualy pretty easy to do from what our testing has shown. This is equivalent of that 1 defensive bot scoring 8 ringers.
Last year 1 defensive bot only stood to forfiet his offensive period, and then possibly slow the opponents shots down to maybe 1/2, and also lost this time to gather balls.
these are very different games defensively. I think this year more than any other year Defense is the key

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I agree with Sean.

Think about it this way. Last year we had the dream alliance of 25, 968, and 195 in Atlanta. One huge offense bot, one half offense/half defense, and one huge defense bot. Anyone going into matches against us could easily identify 25 as the "best" team on the alliance, and therefore focused their defensive strategy on them. So, what did we do? We had 25 play defense. So, as teams attacked 25, 968 would ninja their way up on the ramp and score 40 points. And then we would feed them balls. And then they did it again. All the while, people were trying to herd 25 into a corner, even though they needed to be there to human load. When the other alliance finally caught wind of what we were doing it was too late, and last minute defensive efforts only meant 25 could make a break for the goal and throw another 40 points up. This proves that the best defense is an amazing offense. For further proof, ask the Colts.

This year's game is a bit different though. Last year a break in defense for 2 seconds could cause a flux of 30, 40 points. This year it will only cause one tube to go up. But, if this tube is in the right spot, it could be disastrous. I guess we will all see come March...

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

P.S. We (arguably) won the Philly regional last year with defense.

Nothing arguable about it, Cody. 306 flat-out provided such significant defense that they were key to helping their alliance win Philly.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

Brandon, there is no "undisputable evidence" either way, and
arguing defense/offense is a droll thing to do, as depending on the situation, either could be called for. That is why we designed our robot to be able to do both. To design your robot for one or the other is a mistake.Offensive robots will do OK, and defensive robots will do OK, but flexible robots will win.

I was not saying that either way is "better" or anything like that. The numbers that sean threw out there are very solid in my eyes. I cant really dispute those facts...thus I called it "undisputable". I agree 100% that flexible robots will win.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

P.S. We (arguably) won the Philly regional last year with defense.

177 won all of their events with defense. Other regionals, which 177 did not attend, seemed to have different outcomes. Offense oriented outcomes.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Lil Lave,

You keep talking about upper tier teams doing all these things to make defending them really hard and make their offensive capabilities amazing. I think you're forgetting two important facts:

A. The vast majority of teams at most regionals are not "upper tier teams"
B. The serpentine draft almost guarantees a mix of upper and not teams on an alliance.

Granted this all changes at the Championship, but at most regionals, you're going to have one or maybe two real offensive powerhouses on a given alliance in the elims. In seeding you're just as likely to have just one powerhouse on each alliance. Double-teaming the power houses or defending the weaker bots could still prove an effective strategy. It all depends on the vagaries of the alliance mixes in a given match. 75% of the competition is quals, after all. And 95% is not the Finals at Championship.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

To design your robot for one or the other is a mistake.Offensive robots will do OK, and defensive robots will do OK, but flexible robots will win.

Replace "robot" with "alliance" in the above statement, and you'd be right on the money. Remember, this is a team game. One robot does not an alliance, and therefore an event winner, make. It's the mix of complementary robot abilities and driver skill that dictates how well an alliance performs.

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

This proves that the best defense is an amazing offense. For further proof, ask the Colts.

Ask the Colts what they thought when they were giving up 163,000 rushing yards a game and losing to teams like the Texans during the regular season..... Only when they remembered how to play DEFENSE (including the New England game) and became a more functionally-complete TEAM did their season turn around.

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

This year's game is a bit different though.

A bit? This year, the game almost plays defense for you. Unlike in 2006.....

• Scoring objects are non-renewable.
• Scoring locations are limited to 24 possible positions at match start and diminish in number as the match goes on.
• Unlike a fixed round target with a know location providing a clear line of sight for any driver, the 2007 scoring apparatus is very dynamic, and 62.5% of the scoring legs are either obstructed from driver view or perpendicular to the driver's line of sight, requiring additional positioning time to complete the score, save for those (few?) teams able to perfect some sensor-aided hanging method.
• Accumulated scores in the form of rows can directly and substantially be reduced by the opposition by placing these little black objects called spoilers.
• Provided they can even be created in the first place, big rows will immediately become the center of attention for the creating alliance - they could become the Sterilite tote stacks of 2007, only this year, physical space is your enemy instead of gravity. A horizontal row of 6 wraps around 75% of the rack. Have fun guarding that type of real estate. A 2 wide by 3 high array is easier to create and defend, but it's only worth 28 points. It's safe to say the row building alliance will devote at least one robot to protect any high-point creation. I can think of numerous ways to mess with the minds of anyone successful in creating any big ringer formation. Will our alliance attack your formation with 2 spoilers at once? Will we periodically feign interest in your construct, gladly accept the presence of your now stationary and unproductive array-guarding robot and go to work build up our own ringer score with a 3 on 2 advantage? Near the end of the match, will our best and fastest offensive robot sit there patiently with a spoiler between you and your home base, torturing you to make a decision as our superior defensive/ramp bot sets up for the bonus and our powerful offensive hybrid continues to score on the other side? Knowing the spoiler bot has the quicks to make it onto the ramp with little time to spare, will you hold your ground, frustrated that we can make a 60 point run faster than you can, or will you wuss out and run home to mommy early, allowing us to decimate your scoring array with our spoiler? Oh the painful choices.... I see many big-row alliances becoming the victims of their own creation MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA.......

Sorry, I get carried away sometimes.


One powerful ramp/defender. One fast, efficient offensive elite. One 2-way hybrid (ramps are optional, strong drivetrain is not). I see that balanced alliance attack bringing the most strategic options to the table, and I see that type of alliance having the most success this year.

[akshar]

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

One powerful ramp/defender. One fast, efficient offensive elite. One 2-way hybrid (ramps are optional, strong drivetrain is not). I see that balanced alliance attack bringing the most strategic options to the table, and I see that type of alliance having the most success this year.

i second that

[Kevin Ray]

I'm sure that I'm going out on a limb saying this but here goes. First off, I agree with most of what Brandon Holley has said--Offense will win in the end. I say this for several reasons:
1. Yes, if you are defending you are not scoring. Eventually the offensive bot will score. This is assuming that each of the other bots on both alliances are paired up (either both scoring or both defending).

2. I would love to see a ramp bot defend against all comers. (Sorry, Cody Carey, but I have seen a team with a tower that extends, rotates, raises & lowers and has a somewhat ingenious wristed gripper which automatically loads the tube as it drives by in a "swiping motion") So to say that you can guarantee that any offensive robot can be stopped by your bot without having seen all comers is a bold statement. That robot also has two speed trannies, tank treads and a phenomenal driver.

3. At the long Island regional and the nationals in '05 and '06 everything changed between the qualifying rounds and the eliminations. Defense played a big role at first--but as stated earlier--teams realized that if you are being defensive you are not scoring.

4. I think that once alliances realize that they are "Parked" on a ramp waiting for their quick 60 points, each of the other three teams can each be putting on ONE tube and turn 4-in-a-row (16pts) into 7-in-a-row for 128 points. Remember that's only ONE TUBE EACH!!!!
Do you think that won't be possible?? Look at the Nationals with the tetras and offense vs. defense. In the finals there was NO defense (other than covering the previous tetra)--but blocking was nonexistent.

--So yes, in the early stages RAMPS and DEFENSE may-and probably will rule, but in the end I think offense tube placers will dominate.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Kevin Ray

I'm sure that I'm going out on a limb saying this but here goes. First off, I agree with most of what Brandon Holley has said--Offense will win in the end. I say this for several reasons:
1. Yes, if you are defending you are not scoring. Eventually the offensive bot will score. This is assuming that each of the other bots on both alliances are paired up (either both scoring or both defending).

2. I would love to see a ramp bot defend against all comers. (Sorry, Cody Carey, but I have seen a team with a tower that extends, rotates, raises & lowers and has a somewhat ingenious wristed gripper which automatically loads the tube as it drives by in a "swiping motion") So to say that you can guarantee that any offensive robot can be stopped by your bot without having seen all comers is a bold statement. That robot also has two speed trannies, tank treads and a phenomenal driver.

3. At the long Island regional and the nationals in '05 and '06 everything changed between the qualifying rounds and the eliminations. Defense played a big role at first--but as stated earlier--teams realized that if you are being defensive you are not scoring.

4. I think that once alliances realize that they are "Parked" on a ramp waiting for their quick 60 points, each of the other three teams can each be putting on ONE tube and turn 4-in-a-row (16pts) into 7-in-a-row for 128 points. Remember that's only ONE TUBE EACH!!!!
Do you think that won't be possible?? Look at the Nationals with the tetras and offense vs. defense. In the finals there was NO defense (other than covering the previous tetra)--but blocking was nonexistent.

--So yes, in the early stages RAMPS and DEFENSE may-and probably will rule, but in the end I think offense tube placers will dominate.

Also. One Good Lifting bot allows to offensive bots on the same alliance. Three lifiting bots will lose everytime to that team. Whether or not defense is as effective as insinuated above, there is still a need for TWO offensive robots per alliance (or three if you count low scorers like 179 and 47). You could even have three powerhouse offensive robots with a good lifter if you have 33, 217 etc... on your team.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Kevin Ray

4. I think that once alliances realize that they are "Parked" on a ramp waiting for their quick 60 points, each of the other three teams can each be putting on ONE tube and turn 4-in-a-row (16pts) into 7-in-a-row for 128 points. Remember that's only ONE TUBE EACH!!!!
Do you think that won't be possible?? Look at the Nationals with the tetras and offense vs. defense. In the finals there was NO defense (other than covering the previous tetra)--but blocking was nonexistent.

I'll go out on a shorter limb and say I think that's unlikely. If you're a 2 offense, 1 defense/ramp alliance and you've let the opposition line up 4 in a row somewhere uncontested, you've already failed in your goals. A defensive minded alliance should be looking to defend, pre-emptively score and spoil every possible super-row the opposition is planning. You do realize that the max possible rows can be limited to just 3 in a row with only 6 strategically placed tubes, don't you? Scoring just those 6 tubes in 2 opposing vertical rows gives a max rack score disparity of 16-96. That's assuming the offensive alliance can score the remaining 18 spider legs uncontested and that they remain unspoiled. Note that that assumes the pure offense alliance can score at 3 times the rate of the mixed alliance. While they're being defended. Frankly, if your 3 offensive robots can score 3 times faster than my 2 offensive robots, then you DO deserve to win.

[dpick1055]

I think that defense will be key to this game. At the Wildstang invitational the two Wildstang bots (their prototype and actual bot) had trouble scoring more than 5 rings in a match uncontested. If a team played defense on them, even with their amazing crab drive they couldn't get more than a row of 5 or 6. If an alliance has two good defensive bots they could limit the other alliance to a row of 5 and then lift up to get 60 points at the end.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by dpick1055

I think that defense will be key to this game. At the Wildstang invitational the two Wildstang bots (their prototype and actual bot) had trouble scoring more than 5 rings in a match uncontested. If a team played defense on them, even with their amazing crab drive they couldn't get more than a row of 5 or 6. If an alliance has two good defensive bots they could limit the other alliance to a row of 5 and then lift up to get 60 points at the end.

But what's stopping wildstangs alliance from getting the 60 points?

In the finals every team will have a good ramp/lift robot... It will then depend on the torroids.

[Jimmy Cao]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.


Defense will be key in this years game... just like in any game before it.

Granted defence will be a key part of this game (in my mind, anyways) I dont think you can do that. There's more than one way to get by a defensive bot, and unless your 12" drive base has a really nice drive system (holonomic or mechanum), people can outmenouver you with a more mobile one. I'm just saying that as important as defense is, I think it can be beaten.

I'm not saying a defensive bot will be useless, I'm saying that they will not be able to shut a good scorer down 100%, maybe 50% speaking conservatively.

[BBnum3]

Originally Posted by Lostmage333

Granted defence will be a key part of this game (in my mind, anyways) I dont think you can do that. There's more than one way to get by a defensive bot, and unless your 12" drive base has a really nice drive system (holonomic or mechanum), people can outmenouver you with a more mobile one. I'm just saying that as important as defense is, I think it can be beaten.

I'm not saying a defensive bot will be useless, I'm saying that they will not be able to shut a good scorer down 100%, maybe 50% speaking conservatively.

I disagree. 237 scored a row of 8 ringers in one match at NJ today. The next match I saw them play they were limited to what appeared to me to be one single ringer. I think defense will prove to be incredibly effective. It seems like some matches there is no defense at all and others defense is what it's all about. Those matches will strong defense have incredibly low scores. In my opinion if a team decides that they want to shut down a robot from the opposing alliance that they will accomplish that against every robot but the very best.