Week 1 Impressions of Rack 'N Roll

[artdutra04]

It's unfortunate that first impressions can often leave negative lingering feelings. These are only first week regionals! Remember when we said last year how no one was scoring any balls during week one, or how two years ago no one was scoring many tetras or three years ago how no one was hanging?

Like a great wine or cheese, let this game age to perfection. It's definitely got a lot of potential, and only needs time for teams to gain enough drive team experience to make it fun and enjoyable. By the time week three or week four regionals come around, there will probably be much different opinions of this year's game.


Here are some stats from the regionals so far: (gotta love Excel)
NJ Regional:
Average Score per Match: 22.027 points
Average Non-Zero Score per Match: 29.369 points
Standard Deviation: 38.422 points
Five Highest Scores: 260, 236, 128, 98, 76

VCU:
Average Score per Match: 15.731 points
Average Non-Zero Score per Match: 21.521 points
Standard Deviation: 19.558 points
Five Highest Scores: 108, 84, 64, 64, 62

STL:
Average Score per Match: 19.490 points
Average Non-Zero Score per Match: 23.116 points
Standard Deviation: 26.733 points
Five Highest Scores: 128, 128, 128, 100, 66

PNW: (only limited data set of only 16 matches available)
Average Score per Match: 18.031 points
Average Non-Zero Score per Match: 22.192 points
Standard Deviation: 19.435 points
Five Highest Scores: 77, 60, 45, 34, 32

Edit: No results from BAE available.

[Dan Petrovic]

The thing about spoilers is that if an alliance notices an opponent with a spoiler, they are going to play merciless defense. It will be quite a feat when a team is capable of scoring a ringer, especially when you've got multiple robots pushing you to the side or into the rack.

[platypus]

My Impressions After A Day At GSR:


1. The bottom row is almost all that matters, game after game after game. This makes a lot of sense if you think about it; it's the easiest way to significantly alter the score of the game. It takes almost no time at all to lift a tube 2.5 feet, and there's no risk of collapse.

2. Lifting is about the only way to make the bottom row not matter... much. As far as I could tell, a successful 12" lift won every match that it occurred in... except for once (and my team was on the alliance that beat the lift ). Unless an opposing alliance scores more than a 5 in row, 30 points is generally enough.

3. Lifting is hard and rarely successful. It wins games, but it's hard. Only robots that have well thought out lifts have been successful, and lifting 2 robots (enough to outright win nearly every game played today) has happened maybe 1-2 times in nearly 50 matches. Additionally, if an alliance doesn't devote significant time to getting over to the lifting bot, they're liable to be blocked from ever getting to the home zone.

4. Spoilers don't get used. They. Just. Don't. It's sad from a strategist's prespective, but teams tried to place them maybe 1 out of every 10 matches... and were promptly blocked from ever putting them on. I'm actually not surprised at all as I predicted this; placing spoilers is a very reactive strategy as opposed to proactive ringer placing. Its often worth more to double the score of your longest row than to split your opponent's row into two. Furthermore, placing ringers doesn't set off the red alerts in defenders like picking up a spoiler does.

5. Since spoilers are never successfully placed, spoiler removal capability is kind of meaningless. It's possible that it might matter once in the eliminations somewhere, but I wouldn't count on any more than just seeing a few spoilers placed.

6. Autonomous is a bust, which is kind of sad but completely unsurprising. One keeper was scored today. Just one. As a software guy, I know that it's not an easy autonomous to write this year. Last year, you could use the light to align a shooter and fire from the starting position. This year, you have to move while tracking the light, and move a manipulator to the proper height. This is not easy, and there really isn't much incentive to make it work. Since spoilers aren't used, keepers are basically ringers (and even if spoilers were used, it wouldn't matter very often as spoilers would break the row on the ringer next to the keeper). That's 2 whole points for your trouble, which is why teams just aren't bothering. (My team for one instead focused on an advanced teleoperated control system with preset postitions recorded into EEPROM, and relegated autonomous to that bottom part of the software todo list that never sees a share of the limited integration time.)

7. This is the year of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) method of arm design. You want a simple, efficient arm that grabs a ringer from the floor and places it on the low row as fast as possible. Really that's all you usually need to focus on to do well against the field.

8. Everything else beyond scoring on the bottom row is a bonus, especially lifting. If robots can easily get on to your lift bot for a 30-point bonus, you'll get into the elimination rounds without any difficulty at all.

9. Ultimately I guess I have to agree with that earlier poster that called this a game of volume rather than strategy. It favors the efficient, and the simple strategy is the best.


I guess in general, I'm disappointed by what I saw today. When I first saw the game in January, my first impression was that the rack would rarely reach 2/3 capacity, spoilers and automous were red herrings, and that lifting was the magic key. To my dismay today, I was right on two of these and too optimistic on 2/3 capacity thing (it's more like 1/3 to 1/2).

I expect that we'll see the game evolve quite a bit over the next few weeks, as teams are barely scraping the surface this week.

[BBnum3]

I know we're judging the game really early, as there has only been one day of regionals, but one thing sticks out in my mind. There have been quite a few 0-0 draws, from my count around 9 or 10 of the matches that have scores up. I don't know if the reason for this is poor team strategy or overall difficulty of the game but I don't like it. Maybe the GDC decided that it was too easy to get a 25 point ramp bonus last year, and it was too easy to score 10 in the lower goal in autonomous. This game seems harder. I know it's early, but I wouldn't have suspected so many 0-0, 2-0,4-0 etc. type of scores. Most robots are easily defended, and most ramps haven't been successful, either. This makes for low scoring (read: boring) matches. I hope something changes in teams' strategy over the next month to change this trend, because as of now it doesn't seem like this game is going anywhere. I have my faith in the GDC that they wouldn't give us a game that would end up like this, and I'm optimistic about Rack 'N Roll's future.

[sanddrag]

For all of you disappointed about not seeing any fast paced rack scoring action, just wait until LA.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

For all of you disappointed about not seeing any fast paced rack scoring action, just wait until LA.

Seconded--and I can think of two other teams who can third and fourth this comment.

[Hieb]

Originally Posted by BBnum3

This makes for low scoring (read: boring) matches.

I'll respectfully disagree with this, at least the boring part. Maybe it's because I'm a soccer fan and can enjoy 1-1 tie more than a 100 point win, but I saw some very exciting matches today, including one we lost 13-15. Just because teams aren't consistently scoring 100+ points doesn't mean it's a boring game.

[BBnum3]

Originally Posted by Hieb

I'll respectfully disagree with this, at least the boring part. Maybe it's because I'm a soccer fan and can enjoy 1-1 tie more than a 100 point win, but I saw some very exciting matches today, including one we lost 13-15. Just because teams aren't consistently scoring 100+ points doesn't mean it's a boring game.

I'm a huge soccer fan as well (see the sig) and I understand what you're saying. One of the most exciting matches I've ever seen was a 0-0 draw. There's a difference between two extremely evenly matched alliances duking it out and two struggling alliances failing to score. I should make a distinction that not all low scoring matches are boring, and that it depends on the type of match being played. Anyway, I think the matches will get more exciting as everyone figures out the best way to play the game.

[Joel J]

I'm going to wait until the end of the elimination rounds tommorow before I say anything. That is, I'm hoping that things will pick up little bit tommorow.

[av11d]

I like the game. I think the elims are going to be a LOT of fun. That's when spoilers will matter.

The main problem I see with this year's game is the lack of an "easy" way to score a point or two. Like if there was something to do that could score you one point that would be cool. It'd mix the scores up a little at least. There are too many ties right now. I know 75 has 3 ties already with 1 qualifying match left. Ties = Pretty boring.

[sovierr]

Originally Posted by Hieb

I'll respectfully disagree with this, at least the boring part. Maybe it's because I'm a soccer fan and can enjoy 1-1 tie more than a 100 point win, but I saw some very exciting matches today, including one we lost 13-15. Just because teams aren't consistently scoring 100+ points doesn't mean it's a boring game.

I guess there is a difference between low scoring due to good defence or low scoring due to poor offense. The former can be quite exciting, while the latter is sure to be a snooze fest!

[Gene F]

I like this years game! I agree that some of the low scoring was not what I expected but this is the first weekend of competition. The quarter-final matches at VCU between #2 and #7 are what would expect to see more of as the weeks progress.

Scores were 48 to 68
92 to 32
and 100 to 62.

Each alliance had a good defensive ramp, each had two robots that could score. Both scoring robots could also get onto the ramps reliably. What's left... scoring on the rack makes the difference. Which means offence, defence and counter defence all come into play. This makes for some very exciting and fun to watch matches as the members of the alliance switch roles throughout the match. What decided the matches was the rack. Both alliances knew that winning the rack was paramont to winning the match to the extent that they risked (and at times lost) not having enough time to get on the ramp reliably.

As teams become more confident in their ability to score offensively, defence will fade a bit but will remain a major part of the game.

[Priyadarshy]

yeah those three matches showed how important the rack was and the ramp 612 removed their ramp for the tournament to improve visibility and it paid off but the rack is crucial the ramp WAS the outcome in qualification matches but in the tournament it was a whole new game

[Nawaid Ladak]

That last QF match at VCU was probally the best match i saw so far this weekend.
I think of this as football.

There are three parts to the game

Offense
Defense
Special Teams

there will be alliances such as

The Indianapolis Colts: The best defense is a god offense, never back down and keep on filling the rack (sort of like the winning alliance at NJ)

the Baltimore Ravens: Defense is going to be key, you stop your opponent from doing anything on the rack, with minimal offense, you are sure to win the match

The Chicago Bears: Special Teams, in this game the special teams are pretty much the the autonomous and ramp part of the game, couple that with the spoilers and you fill the missing peace to a great alliance partner. someone who can play some of both offense and defense

so what do we learn from this

To succeed in this years game you must have, A KISS B have alliance partners who specialize in your weaknesses, for example if your a defensive robot, then be sure to have a team who can ramp and or atonomus, plus a team who can score,

that i think will determine the championship this year

Another thing i noticed, and i think this is for every year. defense is disregarded at regionals, we all want to see offense, like a famous saying goes "offense brings the crowds, but defense wins games" or in this case, regionals.

Teams in the top 8, (most likely offensive matchines) will need to do A LOT of scouting and choosing, because one wrong move, could cost your team a trip to Atlanta in April.

[meatmanek]

Originally Posted by platypus

6. Autonomous is a bust, which is kind of sad but completely unsurprising. One keeper was scored today. Just one. As a software guy, I know that it's not an easy autonomous to write this year. Last year, you could use the light to align a shooter and fire from the starting position. This year, you have to move while tracking the light, and move a manipulator to the proper height. This is not easy, and there really isn't much incentive to make it work. Since spoilers aren't used, keepers are basically ringers (and even if spoilers were used, it wouldn't matter very often as spoilers would break the row on the ringer next to the keeper). That's 2 whole points for your trouble, which is why teams just aren't bothering. (My team for one instead focused on an advanced teleoperated control system with preset postitions recorded into EEPROM, and relegated autonomous to that bottom part of the software todo list that never sees a share of the limited integration time.)

I have to agree that autonomous isn't worth as much as it could be. At St. Louis, maybe one or two spoilers were placed ever. I thought we would be spending most of our time working on autonomous, when in fact we spent most of our time working on perfecting our teleoperated code. We do plan to write an autonomous mode, but we think it will mostly be for show.

This year, more than ever, a sophisticated teleoperated mode is incredibly useful, particularly on 868's robot. Our tube handling system has 3 separate controllable parts, and a simple switch-on-the-OI system would make the job of the operator incredibly complex. Fortunately for me, depending on the job at hand, there are only a few distinct setups that the system should have. (The grabber should never be open when the arm is up in the air unless you're trying to take off a spoiler, or you've hit the rack)