[YMTC]: taking penalties to force a draw

[eugenebrooks]

RedaTeam finds itself ahead by a few points, with BluaTeam having zero points, but BluaTeam has robot lift that works, has deployed it, and a robot has gotten up on the lift. It is in the last 20 seconds of the match, and RedaTeam crashes into the robot on the lift before it is lifted, knocking it off the lift to the rear. The clock is ticking and the endgame starts. The dislodged robot backs back up onto the lift. The RedaTeam robot then proceeds to crash into the robot again, knocking it off the lift, and then after the dislodged robot gets back on to the lift a third time it crashes into it to knock it off a third time. The clock runs out before the dislodged robot can get back on the lift again...

It is clear that this was no accident, the third time was the charm.
The thirty points of penaties zero RedaTeam's score, and since BlueTeam
had no points the result is a draw for RedaTeam, instead of a loss,
providing less of ding to the RedaTeam's robot standings in the seeding.
RedaTeam cheers the draw...

Now, the questions worth discussing:

* RedaTeam learned that you could obtain a draw, instead of a loss, by purposely taking penalities to prevent BluaTeam from scoring points. Is this what FIRST stands for?
* Should the referrees have ordered the offending RedaTeam robot disabled, say after the second collision, when it was clear to all what was going on?
* Should penalties produce a "signed score" so that a team that zeros their score via penalties can go negative and thereby lose a match when they pursue this strategy.

No doubt someone saw this happen at a regional, and perhaps more than one, but I would implore anyone responding to this thread to stick to the spirit of the thread. The goal here is to discuss the basic issue, and make suggestions to adjust the rules to deal with it. Please don't mention any team names, or identify any regional.

Eugene

[Gabe]

Yellow flag.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Gabe

Yellow flag.

Is that all? I'd go for a yellow at minimum, possibly a red (particularly if Blueateam's robot tips over). Maybe a disable and a yellow.

I'm not sure about a signed score. It could prevent a few penalties, but not many. It would hurt some teams badly when they did not do anything wrong. It would be hard to apply fairly.

[dlavery]

REDATEAM gets a Red Card resulting in a DQ. BLUEATEAM takes 1 QP for a "tie." But REDATEAM gets 0 Qualifier Points and 0 Ranking Points due to their DQ. So REDATEAM still loses. Dumb strategy.

-dave

[meaubry]

I agree with Dave - dumb strategy.
Per your scenario - the following could be assumed.
Time flew by and immediate action was delayed until the dust settled - meaning that reaction time obviously didn't result in immediate action (the match ended before the offending robot was disabled).

I am overjoyed that BLUEATEAM gets the something - BUT, WHY only 1 point for a tie???

If that was the ruling I'd be upset that the price was still too lenient for such horribly bad judgement/behavior.

DQ the REDATEAM - no points at all, Ranking or Qualifying seems fair punishment.

BUT -

BLUEATEAM shouldn't be penalized by only getting 1 point for a tie - they should get the same amount of points as a WIN - regardless of the score. Particularly, because they would have won if the REDATEAM had not employed such a dangerously poor/stupid strategy.

Just my thoughts - Hopefully folks don't employ this strategy.

Mike

[akshar]

rule T06 : team cant get a red card until after they have recieved a yellow card, which can only happen after the match is over.
and because of rule g35...disable the robot.
both teams end in a draw but the one redbot gets a yellow flag.

obtaining penalties to force an outcome of a match is def not in the spirit of FIRST.
the ref's probably should've given the 10 point warning after the second interaction (g35) and disabled after the 3rd.
signed scoring should not happen.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by akshar

rule T06 : team cant get a red card until after they have recieved a yellow card, which can only happen after the match is over.

Just because they can't receive a "red card" doesn't mean they can't be disqualified, per <G35>.

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by akshar

rule T06 : team cant get a red card until after they have recieved a yellow card, which can only happen after the match is over.
and because of rule g35...disable the robot.
both teams end in a draw but the one redbot gets a yellow flag.

::Sigh:: Please read T10:

<T10> If a team is disqualified during a match for a reason other than receiving an additional YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur at the completion of a match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and hold a red card in the air.

Anybody can receive a RED card at the end of a match without receiving a yellow card first. A team making such an egregarious assault on the other alliance would be DQed and Red Carded. Period.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Dan Swando

::Sigh:: Please read T10:

<T10> If a team is disqualified during a match for a reason other than receiving an additional YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur at the completion of a match, before the field is reset, and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the team’s PLAYER STATION and hold a red card in the air.

Anybody can receive a RED card at the end of a match without receiving a yellow card first. A team making such an egregarious assault on the other alliance would be DQed and Red Carded. Period.

which did actually happen at VCU today, in the Elims.

[Steve W]

With the info given:
Both teams receive 1 point for a tie. There was no mention of the refs calling a penalty. If the refs give a yellow card the outcome is the same but the offending robot gets carded. If the ref gives a red card the results are the same but the offending robot gets 0 QP's. The info given says that this is during the qualifying rounds so only the one robot is DQed unlike during the elimination rounds when thewhole alliance is DQed.

If I am wrong please feel free to correct me as my memory may be failing.