Is Defense key to this game?

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by BBnum3

In my opinion if a team decides that they want to shut down a robot from the opposing alliance that they will accomplish that against every robot but the very best.

That is how it has been working out.



To everyone who said defense wouldn't work,

It is no longer opinion, in this year's game; defense works really well.

Robots have a hard enough time scoring with no defense. When you add it; it is pretty much impossible.

Most teams with holonomic/omni drives are using them exactly like standard tank drives, and not taking advantage of their maneuverability.

Very few teams can score on the top rung effectively, and no teams can score effectively when defense is being run. Especially when the defensive bot is between the scorer and the rack.

It is true that the game will change over the competition period, but with the highest score I've seen being 64... I don't know how far it can evolve.


This is all observed from the VCU regional... but it can't be much different elsewhere.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

To everyone who said defense wouldn't work,

It is no longer opinion, in this year's game; defense works really well.

Alliance A;
Defensive bot
Defensive bot
Good lifter

Alliance B;
Offensive bot
Offensive bot
Good lifter


How does defense win this?

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

How does defense win this?

Defense doesn't. I didn't say that it would. The arguments that I don't agree with thus far haven't been about whether defense will win the game, but about whether defense as a strategy works. An example of such an argument is the "you can just score over the head of a defensive bot".This claims that defense won't work, not that it won't win the game.

My point is that while defense may not be the smartest strategy, it will always work.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

Defense doesn't. I didn't say that it would. The arguments that I don't agree with thus far haven't been about whether defense will win the game, but about whether defense as a strategy works. An example of such an argument is the "you can just score over the head of a defensive bot".This claims that defense won't work, not that it won't win the game.

My point is that while defense may not be the smartest strategy, it will always work.

While watching the NJ webcast today, I saw just that - an offensive robot scoring successfully over a defensive robot. The offensive robot pushed the defensive robot into and underneath the lowest spiderleg, and then capped over them. The only way I can see that strategy not working is if the defensive robot has a powerful drivetrain, and if the offensive robot is attempting to score on the lowest (and possibly middle) row. Since the webcast cut off a few minutes after that match, I was unable to see it done a second time, but it certainly was done once with what appeared to be relative ease.

Edit: From watching both webcasts, the difference between NJ and VCU was quite noticeable, as there was a much greater percentage of teams at NJ who were getting scoring frequently and successfully on the rack, and the average score for each match was appeared to be quite higher.
// Me runs off to calculate average scores...

[thefro526]

After coming from driving in NJ today I nearly won a match on defense alone(another robot got penalized). I defened the other alliance from even getting remotely close to the rack and it worked very well. For the most part a good defender can almost shut down a good scorer.

[ALIBI]

The name of the game is strategy. There will be exceptional robots that can score over a defender or when a defender is pushing them around. You will need to know the strengths and weaknesses of yourself, your alliance partners and your opposing alliance partners more than ever before. While watching the VCU and seeing how this years game unfolds on day one the following was observed: When the day started, every team that had any chance at all of scoring a ringer tried to do so. As the day progressed, the good scorers were identified and teams began to defend against them, most defended very well, few robots could score with another robot pushing them around. Towards the end of the day, if you could score, the opposing alliance knew about it and defended you, then the next step in the progression happened, you had one of your alliance partners defend against the defender so that you could score. Any chance that tommorrow we will see defenders defending defenders defending a scorer? Did anyone observe any teams using the spoilers anywhere today??

[EricH]

Originally Posted by thefro526

For the most part a good defender can almost shut down a good scorer.

Forget the good scorers, pick off the great scorers (if you can) and let the bad defenders have the good scorers.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by ALIBI

Did anyone observe any teams using the spoilers anywhere today??

At VCU this morning, a human player threw a spoiler onto the rack. Granted, there were only ~ two tubes on the rack, and neither one was remotely close to the spoiler, but I bet that human player felt pretty smug...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by thefro526

After coming from driving in NJ today I nearly won a match on defense alone(another robot got penalized). I defened the other alliance from even getting remotely close to the rack and it worked very well. For the most part a good defender can almost shut down a good scorer.

At BAE GSR here in New Hampshire we won a match 2-0 on solid defense and a single ringer as the buzzer sounded.

I believe in the elimination rounds you'll see even stronger defense.

[Scott Carpman]

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

Another related question - Can defense be key to this game IN AUTONOMOUS?

I say yes.

Defense in autonomous has been basically rolling to the other side of the field and boxing out on the opponent. It has worked well in NJ so far.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Alliance A;
Defensive bot
Defensive bot
Good lifter

Alliance B;
Offensive bot
Offensive bot
Good lifter


How does defense win this?

By getting atop their good lifter! Really, I'm amazed at the number of bots who can't get onboard. You'd think they'd thought of that.

[JackN]

Is defense Important? Yes! Will a strong defensive bot be picked high? Yes! Is it more important than having two-three strong scorers? NO!!

The defensive robot will be helpful and will often be an integral member of most alliances, but I believe that having two strong scorers greatly reduces the effect of a defensive robot. Scoring on the rack is the same as playing defense in this game, because it shuts down scoring areas and limits the points that teams can score.

The key to this game is executing a strategy that will help maximize scoring and utilize each alliance member's strengths to win.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Scott Carpman

Defense in autonomous has been basically rolling to the other side of the field and boxing out on the opponent. It has worked well in NJ so far.

Indeed. Thanks for the corroboration.

[jgannon]

I had previously been confident that defense would be the key to this game, but it turns out that you need a little more. I crunched a few numbers to develop some power rankings, and I noticed something something interesting. The two best defensive bots this weekend, based solely on points allowed, were 1748 at VCU and 869 at NJ. 1748 allowed 2.5 points on average in 8 matches, and 869 allowed 3.1 points on average in 7 matches. Despite what appears statistically to be very stingy defense, both of these teams finished near the middle of the pack, and neither was picked for eliminations. Conversely, team 272 gave up an average of 35 in 16 matches at PNW, nearly putting them in the bottom 10% of my defensive rankings. Nonetheless, they won the regional. As always, good defense is a very powerful tool. However, it definitely doesn't guarantee anything. (Duh.)

[Arille]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

At VCU this morning, a human player threw a spoiler onto the rack. Granted, there were only ~ two tubes on the rack, and neither one was remotely close to the spoiler, but I bet that human player felt pretty smug...

That is utterly amazing. It would be even more awesome if someone was able to catch it on video.. anyone know where you can possibly find it??

I salute to that human player.