Is Defense key to this game?

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by Arille

That is utterly amazing. It would be even more awesome if someone was able to catch it on video.. anyone know where you can possibly find it??

I salute to that human player.

It happened several times in NJ. We also had robots ringed on their flags-including us!. 103 was ringed with 2 tubes at one point.

[Wayne C.]

Defense really helped the fast placers by taking the pressure off the bots as they tried to settle tubes into place on the swaying rack.

In one round our alliance nearly lost (4-4 tie) because of defensive robots bullying us all over the place.
The last second drop of a tube tied it up and preserved our lead in the field. But when the rack starts swaying you start praying!

WC

[Dominicano0519]

we had a ringing bot but the arm and the ramps interfered with each other;
we ended up having to take off both mechanisms and litterally run around with a13" high , 4ft/s slow, and 98 lbs light (!!!WITH THE BATTERY!!!) defensive(???) robot.

Also we were running on 2 small cims on a 4wd. basic kit bot.

this is not anywhere near an ideal defensive bot, however, any decent ringing robot virtually had half of the field to it's self when we were on their alliance because it was just so easy to play defense.

an example would be
a match where our one robot limited an alliance of 3 to only 2 ringers ( they were all decent ringing robots). While simultaneously keeping our side of the field clean for our one functional alliance partner, enabling them to score 6 ringers in a row.


a good defensive strategy can limit even the best of alliances to only a couple of ringers

[xzvrw2]

Look at how 1444 45 829 beat 148 217 2133. With the ramp. They didnt score very many ringers, but once you get two 'bots 12" up off the ground, thats 60 points. It's like getting the 30pt penalty in 2005, one you get it the games over. I think that defence or scoring ringers wont really matter untill the championship of the championships down in Atlanta. Down in Atlanta, every alliance in the elims will have two awesome scorers and one ramp bot that can hold two. that ramp bot will not hold a ringer but play defence and shut down the other two awesome scorers. Then at the end of the match, the teams will go up onto the ramps. That will be the stradegy. Then maybe it will come down to the scorers, but as of right now, ramp bots rule all.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by xzvrw2

Look at how 1444 45 829 beat 148 217 2133. With the ramp. They didnt score very many ringers, but once you get two 'bots 12" up off the ground, thats 60 points. It's like getting the 30pt penalty in 2005, one you get it the games over. I think that defence or scoring ringers wont really matter untill the championship of the championships down in Atlanta. Down in Atlanta, every alliance in the elims will have two awesome scorers and one ramp bot that can hold two. that ramp bot will not hold a ringer but play defence and shut down the other two awesome scorers. Then at the end of the match, the teams will go up onto the ramps. That will be the stradegy. Then maybe it will come down to the scorers, but as of right now, ramp bots rule all.

Just remember, it takes 3 to tango to get 2 @ 12. Alliance partners must be ready to ditch the rack area and ramp with a bit of time to spare. No need to cut it so close. If the alliance did its job around the rack, it successfully hung a few strategic ringers to prevent a 5-row or more, maybe even built up a 3-row for the alliance, so there's no need to score a few relatively worthless ringers when there's 60 points to be had on the ramp. There's gold in them thar hills!

This emphasizes the need for CONSTANT COMMUNICATION between alliance teams during a match! You must not only learn to talk, but to LISTEN to what others are saying as the match is progressing.

[Paul Copioli]

The one thing you missed is that 217 was on their side for all of the first finals match and our arm was broken for the last 1/2 of the second finals match. The ramp didn't beat our alliance, their more robust robots beat our alliance. Each robot on their alliance did one thing well and performed their task per their strategy.

Congratulations to the 1444, 45, and 829 alliance on their great win.

By the way, look out for 148. They are a really, really fast ringer that can score through defense.

[koolguy8907]

i agree with "Dominicano0519" i drove the robot he talking about and all we had was a moving box that can push. It came in handy when setting picks and protecting ur alliances robots if the other alliance goes after them. Plus all we had to do was get in front of our opponent robot and eith push them or the ringer there are after. A defensive is real good to have on a team but it need to be real special....... "381" ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

The one thing you missed is that 217 was on their side for all of the first finals match and our arm was broken for the last 1/2 of the second finals match. The ramp didn't beat our alliance, their more robust robots beat our alliance. Each robot on their alliance did one thing well and performed their task per their strategy.

Congratulations to the 1444, 45, and 829 alliance on their great win.

By the way, look out for 148. They are a really, really fast ringer that can score through defense.

I totally agree with this based on personally being on an alliance that made it as a 7th seed to the finals. It was the key to being able to successfully beat the 2nd and 3rd ranked teams in the playoffs.
They had awesome scoring, no question......however, very and I mean VERY few teams will be able to score 6++ ringers if one or two robots are defending you. It has been proven in 99% of the matches (i.e. not including team 25) that those teams may only score 1 or 2 at most.
Thus the ramp bot is the X-factor.

If I was in the top seed, and there were only 1 or 2 effective, reliable ramp bots (60 point max capability), i would take them over the next best ringer scorer. Top seeds may get their great second scorers in the first round of selections if they choose so, but at the lower seeding teams expense of picking the best rampbots in the second round.

When both the robots, defenders defending and the rack moves, it presents some really tough situations in trying to score. Any decent scorer can score 7+ ringers with no opposition and lots of practice.

[themagichat]

If I was in the top seed, and there were only 1 or 2 effective, reliable ramp bots (60 point max capability), i would take them over the next best ringer scorer. Top seeds may get their great second scorers in the first round of selections if they choose so, but at the lower seeding teams expense of picking the best rampbots in the second round.

From my experience this year the rampbots haven't played that big of a role. Most teams with the double robot capacity take too much time to set up. At the NJ regional most teams with 2 ramps only ended up with one on top at the end. It is also not always reliable considering that ringers are getting in the way in the home zone.

[waialua359]

it worked well in getting us to the finals past the #2 and #3 seeded teams.

[+()c|D]

I think that defense will play a very big role in this game because the good alliances will have the robots tag-teaming from offence to defense non-stop, which should keep the other alliance from scoring...

but who really knows?

Lets ask Dean

[artdutra04]

This game goes much deeper than many think.

Every time I see another match video, I keep coming back to one thing. Not Triple Play anymore, but FIRST Frenzy! That year, you could win if you had an amazing small ball bot with a dynamic human player who could score most of their shots. 10 balls in the stationary goal at 5 points a piece was 50 points, a decent score in that game. But that wasn't the only way to win. A hanging robot for 50 points was a good shot at a win, but if the other alliance hung as well, the +50 lead is now negated. The same could be said for the 2x ball, which could easily negate up to two hanging robots, but could also be descored by the opposing alliance.

This year's game is much the same. A ramp bot can win some matches, but if they are also a defensive bot, then in the 30 seconds at the end of the match the other alliance is now relatively free to score on the rack. A tube scorer, if able to out maneuver defense, can easily negate a defense bot if they are in the upper echelon of teams, or if the entire alliance of tube scorers works together.

Ramp bots on each alliance can negate other ramp bots on the opposing alliance. If each alliance has no tubes scored from heavy defense, but each also has 2@12", then those points are well pointless, because now you have a tie. It's the same as one hanging robot from each alliance in 2004: the net point change is still 0. (A tie is still better than a loss, but it's not a win.)

What you want in this year's game is a net change of +points. Defense can do this, if your alliance has a way of accumulating points (whether through tubes or through end zone bonus'). But if your alliance cannot reliably score points in some fashion and only relies upon defense, you cannot win. The best you can do is tie.

So it actually takes offense for defense to win. Who wuddathunkit?

[cziggy343]

i no that every time that our robot gets onto a field, we are a target because we can score so well. so wat the opposing alliance did was have all three robots against us, and our alliance partners didn't do much to help (until the emlimination rounds). thats why we were ranked 31 at vcu, because of strong defense.

and all of the ramp bots are going to look very good if the vcu trend continues.

[Ed Coleman]

Something to think about. 1 awesome scorer, 1 good scorer w/defense ability, 1 rampbot w/defense. How can you stop that?

One defense bot defends the opponents tube scorers. The offensive bot puts up tubes at random to prevent large rows. The ramp bot defends the offensive bot till time to deploy the ramp. The rampbot that can quickly deploy, drops ramp and can lift both allies every time.

The ramp bot in this strategy becomes the highest scorer. How do you stop that?

[Lil' Lavery]

I'd still be careful judging this game based on the week 1 and week 2 results. Art raises what is probably the most correct post so far. It's all about determining what will get you the best net score at that time. And often (if climbed properly) the bonus points for each alliance can and would negate each other, leaving the game to whoever won the rack.
Defense tends to become very lax in the last 25-30 seconds of any given game, as teams go back to deploy and climb on each other. That is where many of the best scorers quickly made up points lost to defense earlier. 25, 103, and 1302 are probably the best example of this. That alliance would typically get a few ringers up while being defended, but then they'd place 4 or 5 in the last quarter of the match as the other alliance attempted bonus points. End result? NJ Regional Champions. The same can be seen with many of my team's victories. We were unfortunate to be paired against one of the top 3 defensive teams at VCU (122) every match. They greatly hampered our scoring, but when they went back for bonus points, we'd quickly score a ringer or two, then get our own bonus points, resulting in 32-30, or 36-30 type victories.
Also, I saw several times that defensive bots got scored over at VCU.

Originally Posted by Ed Coleman

Something to think about. 1 awesome scorer, 1 good scorer w/defense ability, 1 rampbot w/defense. How can you stop that?

One defense bot defends the opponents tube scorers. The offensive bot puts up tubes at random to prevent large rows. The ramp bot defends the offensive bot till time to deploy the ramp. The rampbot that can quickly deploy, drops ramp and can lift both allies every time.

The ramp bot in this strategy becomes the highest scorer. How do you stop that?

By the opponent having 2 or 3 tube scoring machines. Especially when they can step up their offense after the ramp bot goes back to deploy and/or if they can get on their own ramp bot.