Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!

[Swan217]

There was a progressive time bar? I didn't notice it on the webcast. I just thought they couldn't get the clock to work in the program.

Let me tell you, if I couldn't figure out the new system, what makes you think that normal audience people will? Bring back the clock!

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Along with that, I'd add that it would be nice to have the match number displayed on screen. This is something we've had before and I don't know why it wasn't included in the new system. It's so helpful when you pop your head out of the pits to take a look at what's going on to know which match is currently being played. Also it makes it a lot easier when reviewing recorded footage, which is what I'm doing now. Along those same lines, why are the eliminations displayed as "Match 1", "Match 2", etc? There's no way from looking at a recording of a match now to know which round (quarter's, semi's, etc) it came from, or which match it is within that round.

I agree with Dave. I had no idea what match I was watching on the webcast, whether it was match 1 or 2, or whether it was QF or SF or F. This is a BAD thing if you're not devoting 100% concentration to the game (ex. Scrounging for parts, trying to fix your robot before your next match, etc.).

[NoSkaOnTheRadio]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

If I had to choose between the progress bar and the clock, I would choose the latter. A clock is much better for forming an exact strategy, because then you know exactly how many seconds are left in the match.

But I have a solution that makes everyone happy.

As anyone who's familiar with iPods knows, they have both a progress bar and countdown clocks on the screen that are displayed when playing each song. A very similar concept can be adapted for use on the FRC scoreboard displays.

I looooove this idea. Brilliant!

[whytheheckme]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

If I had to choose between the progress bar and the clock, I would choose the latter. A clock is much better for forming an exact strategy, because then you know exactly how many seconds are left in the match.

But I have a solution that makes everyone happy.

As anyone who's familiar with iPods knows, they have both a progress bar and countdown clocks on the screen that are displayed when playing each song. A very similar concept can be adapted for use on the FRC scoreboard displays.

I love it!

Perhaps the whole FRC competition should be run with Apple products....

Jacob

[Don Knight]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

It did? St. Louis was down for over an hour because it couldn't calculate rankings correctly. Sure, the match control went better (however, there was no automated scoring and no green light to turn on/off), so it's a step in the right direction, but not being able to calculate rankings correctly is quite literally a show-stopper defect.

Wow, that is bad... I only had the opportunity to watch VCU on the webcast. Their system seemed to be working well. Matches and Standing were updating in real time to the FIRST website.

I do see where having the match numbers up on the screen would be a help. They have had that info in the past. My comments were tempered by what I saw on Saturday and what I've experienced during week 2 at the Arizona Regional the last 4 years. I can't remember a scoring system that worked properly when we received it.

Complaining about not having a clock, when there is a clock mounted at the top center of each alliance area justed seemed petty.

A vendor can only supply what why are asked to supply.

[Dave Scheck]

Originally Posted by Don Knight

Wow, that is bad... I only had the opportunity to watch VCU on the webcast. Their system seemed to be working well. Matches and Standing were updating in real time to the FIRST website.

The problem was that there were an odd number of teams at the event. This caused teams to play as surrogates in matches at the end of the competition. The system wasn't able handle this and ended up counting these matches in the rankings.

One of the reasons that it was caught at STL was that the #1 and #2 seeded teams were surrogates in the last match. #2 ended up beating #1 in that match and the rankings changed to reflect this. #1 brought this to the attention of the regional. I have to wonder if this happened at other regionals and went unnoticed.

At VCU, I believe there were 66 teams. This divides nicely by the number of teams per match (6), and is why they shouldn't have seen this issue.

Complaining about not having a clock, when there is a clock mounted at the top center of each alliance area justed seemed petty.

I disagree. If the drivers can't see the clock in the case of a loaded rack, it does them no good. From a spectator's point of view, the remaining time should be clearly displayed. The uneducated eye should be able to figure things out in a matter of seconds. It took me a few matches to even realize that the progress bar was there!

[mtaman02]

I say keep the progress bar b/c it looks cool and its different. There is a count down timer at each player station which is accurate. Why should you look up at an angle for a countdown time when all you got to do is look across. just my .02. However there is a setting on the field control system that shows the remaining time, score and ringer position and progress bar all on one screen. Its up to whoever is at the helm to choose what is seen on the viewers screen.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

There is a count down timer at each player station which is accurate. Why should you look up at an angle for a countdown time when all you got to do is look across.

Oh, so you have x-ray vision? Remember, there is this 10+ foot tall contraption square in the middle of the field, and it would effectively block the vision, particularly when it is loaded with tubes. This is why the coaches, drive teams, etc. want a clock on the screen (which is much harder to block).

[haroony341]

the only thing about drive teams using a clock shown on the main screen is that it becomes a problem at regionals in smaller venues where the screen is behind one of the alliance stations (philly, chesapeake)giving a huge advantage to that alliance. but it would work perfectly at regionals like NJ and VCU where the screen is on the side.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Don Knight

Complaining about not having a clock, when there is a clock mounted at the top center of each alliance area justed seemed petty.

Well, I was at St. Louis as a spectator only, and from a spectator's point of view the clocks on the alliance station walls aren't good enough. First of all, if you don't know anything about FIRST, it would take you quite a while to figure out that those clocks are even there. More importantly, however, is the fact that there's quite a few places in the stands where you can't see either clock (due to the rack being in the way or any of several other obstructions).

[mtaman02]

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

[BRosser314]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

If I had to choose between the progress bar and the clock, I would choose the latter. A clock is much better for forming an exact strategy, because then you know exactly how many seconds are left in the match.

But I have a solution that makes everyone happy.

As anyone who's familiar with iPods knows, they have both a progress bar and countdown clocks on the screen that are displayed when playing each song. A very similar concept can be adapted for use on the FRC scoreboard displays.

HMMMMM, good idea but there may be a copyright to that type of thing that apple would get mad about, if they found out.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

If the game had no time limit and rather "who achieves this objective first?", then I'd agree with you. This year's and every year's game is entirely based on timing your moves. For example, it is important for a ramp bot to know when they need to get back to their home zone and deploy their ramp. It is also important for the alliance partners to know how much time they need to get up on the ramp. If a team is attempting to place a ringer on the rack and they have 5 seconds left, they can time their drop/cap. I think I have provided sufficient evidence that an accurate timer is absolutely essential to this years game and FIRST should implement it into their system.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

If you're not keeping track of the score and looking at the clock, you're a bad coach. There's a lot to keep track of in this game and knowing how much time is remaining is critical to making good decisions about strategy. That teams can be penalized for being in a certain part of the field during the last fifteen seconds ought to be reason enough to make the remaining time visible throughout the match.

I'm not sure how many other folks who've chimed in here have coached so far this season, but I can't count the number of times I looked toward the large screen to find out how much time was left. When we were assigned to the middle station, I could not see the clock at all and had to run to one end or the other the alliance station and back to see the clock.

I'd also love to be able to know how much time is left in matches that I watch on video. I'm trying to get a sense for how much time it takes partners to climb our lifts and that's difficult to do with the existing display.

[Cody Carey]

I don't think the audience really needs to see a clock. The time-bar may even be an advantage while addressing a wide sample-audience. What I'm worried about is the drive-team.

A very easy and simple solution would be to have the field-setup crew just put the clock facing towards the opposite side of the driver station wall in the center. That way it would be facing the drivers, and absolutely not a problem for any of the teams to see.


Just a thought.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

I don't think the audience really needs to see a clock.

The general audience might not, but It's awfully helpful to the scouts to know how much time is left. If team X has a ramp, it's nice to be able to say that they set up close to 25 seconds left in the match, not "about 4/5 of the way along the progress bar"