Petition: Scoring Display needs a TRUE CLOCK!!

[Don Knight]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

It did? St. Louis was down for over an hour because it couldn't calculate rankings correctly. Sure, the match control went better (however, there was no automated scoring and no green light to turn on/off), so it's a step in the right direction, but not being able to calculate rankings correctly is quite literally a show-stopper defect.

Wow, that is bad... I only had the opportunity to watch VCU on the webcast. Their system seemed to be working well. Matches and Standing were updating in real time to the FIRST website.

I do see where having the match numbers up on the screen would be a help. They have had that info in the past. My comments were tempered by what I saw on Saturday and what I've experienced during week 2 at the Arizona Regional the last 4 years. I can't remember a scoring system that worked properly when we received it.

Complaining about not having a clock, when there is a clock mounted at the top center of each alliance area justed seemed petty.

A vendor can only supply what why are asked to supply.

[Dave Scheck]

Originally Posted by Don Knight

Wow, that is bad... I only had the opportunity to watch VCU on the webcast. Their system seemed to be working well. Matches and Standing were updating in real time to the FIRST website.

The problem was that there were an odd number of teams at the event. This caused teams to play as surrogates in matches at the end of the competition. The system wasn't able handle this and ended up counting these matches in the rankings.

One of the reasons that it was caught at STL was that the #1 and #2 seeded teams were surrogates in the last match. #2 ended up beating #1 in that match and the rankings changed to reflect this. #1 brought this to the attention of the regional. I have to wonder if this happened at other regionals and went unnoticed.

At VCU, I believe there were 66 teams. This divides nicely by the number of teams per match (6), and is why they shouldn't have seen this issue.

Complaining about not having a clock, when there is a clock mounted at the top center of each alliance area justed seemed petty.

I disagree. If the drivers can't see the clock in the case of a loaded rack, it does them no good. From a spectator's point of view, the remaining time should be clearly displayed. The uneducated eye should be able to figure things out in a matter of seconds. It took me a few matches to even realize that the progress bar was there!

[mtaman02]

I say keep the progress bar b/c it looks cool and its different. There is a count down timer at each player station which is accurate. Why should you look up at an angle for a countdown time when all you got to do is look across. just my .02. However there is a setting on the field control system that shows the remaining time, score and ringer position and progress bar all on one screen. Its up to whoever is at the helm to choose what is seen on the viewers screen.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

There is a count down timer at each player station which is accurate. Why should you look up at an angle for a countdown time when all you got to do is look across.

Oh, so you have x-ray vision? Remember, there is this 10+ foot tall contraption square in the middle of the field, and it would effectively block the vision, particularly when it is loaded with tubes. This is why the coaches, drive teams, etc. want a clock on the screen (which is much harder to block).

[haroony341]

the only thing about drive teams using a clock shown on the main screen is that it becomes a problem at regionals in smaller venues where the screen is behind one of the alliance stations (philly, chesapeake)giving a huge advantage to that alliance. but it would work perfectly at regionals like NJ and VCU where the screen is on the side.

[mtaman02]

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

If the game had no time limit and rather "who achieves this objective first?", then I'd agree with you. This year's and every year's game is entirely based on timing your moves. For example, it is important for a ramp bot to know when they need to get back to their home zone and deploy their ramp. It is also important for the alliance partners to know how much time they need to get up on the ramp. If a team is attempting to place a ringer on the rack and they have 5 seconds left, they can time their drop/cap. I think I have provided sufficient evidence that an accurate timer is absolutely essential to this years game and FIRST should implement it into their system.

[Cody Carey]

I don't think the audience really needs to see a clock. The time-bar may even be an advantage while addressing a wide sample-audience. What I'm worried about is the drive-team.

A very easy and simple solution would be to have the field-setup crew just put the clock facing towards the opposite side of the driver station wall in the center. That way it would be facing the drivers, and absolutely not a problem for any of the teams to see.


Just a thought.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

I don't think the audience really needs to see a clock.

The general audience might not, but It's awfully helpful to the scouts to know how much time is left. If team X has a ramp, it's nice to be able to say that they set up close to 25 seconds left in the match, not "about 4/5 of the way along the progress bar"

[Josh Murphy]

I to noticed this while watching the webcasts. I don't think it is that big of a deal for the driver because there is a clock across the field that you can see.(i think or was this visible to anyone?) The audience would be the ones confused because they are looking at the progress bar.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

If you're not keeping track of the score and looking at the clock, you're a bad coach. There's a lot to keep track of in this game and knowing how much time is remaining is critical to making good decisions about strategy. That teams can be penalized for being in a certain part of the field during the last fifteen seconds ought to be reason enough to make the remaining time visible throughout the match.

I'm not sure how many other folks who've chimed in here have coached so far this season, but I can't count the number of times I looked toward the large screen to find out how much time was left. When we were assigned to the middle station, I could not see the clock at all and had to run to one end or the other the alliance station and back to see the clock.

I'd also love to be able to know how much time is left in matches that I watch on video. I'm trying to get a sense for how much time it takes partners to climb our lifts and that's difficult to do with the existing display.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

I have many things to comment about when it concerns this game. a more visible clock sadly enough is not one of them b/c Teams are suppose to work in co-opertition with one another forming a dominant alliance. Very Very Very Rare does that alliance do what they say they are gonna do. Having a Visible Clock will not change a thing. Even with the extremely Audible Game sounds doesn't make the alliance do what they have to do. I have played in the FIRST Game and I have Volunteered at the FIRST Game and I have not seen anyone look at the screen to see where they stand as far as time was concerned. Heck I don't even think the teams pay attention to the scoring. They're too busy concentrating on whats going on in front of them. Now what teams should do is appoint 1 person only to keep an eye on the clock and have them run back and forth in the player station informing the alliance how much time they have left to complete the game successfully. Now if you want ask FIRST to put up more visible timers on top of the player station b/c I do agree that one on each side is not enough or better yet put the countdown timers on top of the goal. b/c my person opinion is your eyes should be on the game not looking for a clock.

My team has been doing that as long as I have been on the team. When I was an operator last year I would constantly look at the the screen to see the time, and a different perspecitve of the field.

If we've been doing, I'm pretty sure many teams do the same.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Dave Scheck

From a spectator's point of view, the remaining time should be clearly displayed. The uneducated eye should be able to figure things out in a matter of seconds. It took me a few matches to even realize that the progress bar was there!

I would think that the uneducated eye (walk in spectator) would figure out the time bar pretty quickly. I think it would take them longer to figure out the game.

Wetzel

[Dave Scheck]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

I would think that the uneducated eye (walk in spectator) would figure out the time bar pretty quickly. I think it would take them longer to figure out the game.

Wetzel

Point taken, but what I was getting at was that if FIRST wants to make this spectator friendly (which I think has been their goal at least in the past few years), they need to display the time in terms that the audience is used to. A clock is the standard way to keep time, not a progress bar. It needs to be big enough to read clearly, the font needs to be fixed width so that there is no change in width, and if the time is less than a minute it needs the prepending zero (i.e. 0:59).

The focus should be made, as you said, on figuring out the game, not trying to decipher how much time is remaining in the match.

As for the iTunes progress bar idea, I have to disagree. I think that it would clutter the already precious screen space. Keep it clean, keep it simple and you can't go wrong.

[mtaman02]

Too make life easier and more spectator friendly FIRST should put clocks on top of the scoring goals (The Rack for this year) and I'll settle for a redesigned Real Time Score Board with Clock, Progress Bar, Score and where the Scoring Objects are placed. That way everyone can be happy and it will still be cool looking.