Update #16

[Jim E]

The only obvious answer in for insurance purposes. SOME Americans live for lawsuits. FIRST is covering their bases since they bear ultimate responsibility as promoter. They would be the FIRST to be sued, along with the venue where it happened, along with the Team that loaned the tool, along with the Fast Food restuarant that served up the too hot coffee that spilled on the machinist who lost control of the grinder, that took off the finger, that hit some one else in the eye, that caused that person to bump the person operating the bandsaw:, which sliced into the arm......You get the point?

[DRH2o]

Team 1598 had a bandsaw in the pits at VCU anc cut a lot of parts for a lot of teams. John Henderson spent hours cutting for others. The safety inspectors were there while we were using it and said nothing to us. I feel bad that we were breaking a rule that I was not aware of. We will not use it again.

[sanddrag]

I would argue circular saws and sawz-alls are more dangerous. And shoot, a hand drill is often more dangerous.

But, I do understand the need to do this. I guess it all just goes back to the fact that you need to finish your robot before it goes in the crate.

[Derek Bessette]

You might convince me of not being able to bring a bandsaw, although I believe that a bandsaw it safer than the alternatives teams will end up using.

But no drill press?

[IndySam]

We were not allowed to use our bandsaw at Purdue last year.

[Ben Piecuch]

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN

[Raul]

Originally Posted by Ben Piecuch

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN

Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.

Raul

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Raul

Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.

116 is in the same boat. A couple years ago we designed our new pit set up (the "ark") specifically to set up our bench drill press, bandsaw, and belt sander so that both 116 and other teams could use it. And teams did use it. There have been a few teams over the years who have spent nearly as much time in our pit as in theirs. Now we are no longer allowed to bring them.
When I informed 116 of this at our meeting tonight, the response was shock and displeasure. I am NOT happy with this rule, not by a longshot.

[MrForbes]

I don't see what the big deal is...but then my favorite tools (even in my home shop) are tin snips, hacksaw, and files.....and a big vise...and I guess the big hammer makes the list too.

[Justin]

I think there are good points on both sides of this issue. I think it also varies widely from regional to regional in terms of pit logistics but obviously FIRST can't make the call on that basis. In some cases it is a safety issue in others it isn't. Frankly though I don't see the problem of brining a mobile machine shop if you are willing to be gracious about it and allow others to use it, within reason. Also I think there is a fairness here when you use a FIRST machine shop it is up to the person operating the machine, which as I understand it is not the team, so when that part comes out wrong then what??? I worry as well that so much of FIRST has become all about "cover your but" if you look at all the disclaimers, waivers, etc, etc, etc. you need to sign just to be a part of FIRST or volunteer at a regional it is really getting a little out of control, but I don't know how to fix that but it does take some of the fun out of it.

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

-Justin

[ScoutingNerd175]

Originally Posted by Justin

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

This doesn't seem like a particularly useful situation. I'm sure that most teams try to keep all non-essential people out of the pits. But I know that when I have had people at competitions and I wanted to get them interested in FIRST, taking them to the pits is always what interests them the most.

And on a more basic level, I don't know how pit scouting would ever get done if we couldn't have people down there. Because our drivers and pit crew can only help with that if they have time, which isn't often at all.

[mathking]

I think the cutting and drilling station idea has some merit as an alternative. As a side note, in my actuarial experience I discovered that statistically speaking, drill presses are among the most dangerous shop tools, particularly in an enclosed space. Sean Lavery is quite correct when he pointed out the flying metal danger.

As for hating the lawyers, or hating people trying to make a quick buck, we have to remember that another reason the system is the way it is now. There is a direct causal link to people and corporations who tried to evade responsibility when they actually did do something wrong or unsafe.

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

[Tuba4]

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted. The lack of such tools in the pits will surely cause even greater backlogs at the FIRST machine shops. And we have been saved many times by those on site shops. If my vote counted, I would vote for a separte drilling and cutting station. It makes the most sense. It would relieve pressure on the machine shops by directing minor work elsewhere.


Regarding the Pittsburgh machine shop:

Originally Posted by mathking

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

The shop is located in the basement of Benedum Hall, the U of Pittsburgh's Engineering building. It is three blocks or so from the competition site. You must walk up and down Cardiac Hill. And there is a reason they call it Cardiac Hill!!!

[Gabe Salas Jr.]

FIRST needs to remember their roots. FIRST is "to create a world where science and technolgoy are celebrated... where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes." (Dean Kamen)

It is even in their mission statement: "FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills."
_______________

Without the tools needed, it would be very difficult to maintain these interests and motiviate these individuals to become more (prior to joining FIRST). It is like expecting to win a battle by only giving your soldiers the parts of the gun without the tools for assembly; you might as well throw bullets.

We would not have stories like the 10 hour robot built during Nationals in 2004. Please tell me that this story is not one of the cornerstones of inspiration. I would love to hear your explanation.

Please come up with a resolution to this problem. We are engineers, not lawyers. I do not want Dan Swando's vision to come to fruition.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Tuba4

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted.

Team 1114 regularly brings in a band saw and a drill press to events. 90% of the time it's being used, it is not for our team. There are literally lineups to get into our pit at certain times. I'm not worried about how this will effect our team. I am worried about how it's going to effect the numerous teams who finish their robot on practice Thursday. This rule just stinks.

Also, shouldn't have this been made clear during the build season. I'm sure many teams shipped parts in their crate, hoping that's be able to use a drill press to work on them in the pits. Knowing this rule in advance, would have dramatically altered their plans.

As the years have gone on, it seems more and more veteran mentors are getting fed up with the actions of FIRST. This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.