Update #16

[Raul]

Originally Posted by Ben Piecuch

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN

Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.

Raul

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Ben Piecuch

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

Originally Posted by FIRST Annual Report

2006 Operating expenses:
FIRST Robotics Competition $14,023,526
FIRST LEGO League $1,271,223
FIRST Vex Challenge $634,510
FIRST Place $77,085
Management and general $2,676,235
Operation of building $337,218
Depreciation $361,644
Total operating expenses $19,381,441

The lion's share (72%) of FIRST's budget, $14 million last year, went to putting on FRC events. This was only partly (79%) offset by the $11 million in registration fees they took in. The rest (21%) was covered by sponsors.

I wouldn't know how much of the $14 million went to insurance premiums but I'll bet it was more than any of us would like. Even so, I doubt it was more than 21% of the cost. So it is unlikely that ANY of our registration fees went to cover insurance -- that was part of the sponsors' share.

[Heretic121]

Great post richard...

Is there any way one can find out what % of that 14mil was acutally posted or spent on Inssurance?

The main reason i ask is because as everyone knows, you do sign waivers before you can participate at ANY FIRST competition.

[cziggy343]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

yeah really. people use our drill press all the time. and so do we. that's upsetting.

[ChuckDickerson]

I am trying to figure out how to say this delicately but I can’t so I am just going to say it.

Is this the beginning of the end for FIRST? Are the lawyers going to now ruin FIRST just like everything else in this Country? I understand that safety is of utmost importance to FIRST as it should be but doesn’t this just sort of go against the whole spirit of FIRST? We are in a competition after all. We are supposed to overcome problems and damage in the heat of battle. We are supposed to work together for the betterment of all. Now we are supposed to do it without power tools? I agree. Where are they (FIRST) going to draw the line. Maybe I can understand the whole no welding in the pits due to fire safety issue but why is a stationary drill press any more dangerous than a handheld cordless one? Why is a band saw any more dangerous than a reciprocating saw? Are we going to get another update next week that now outlaws cordless drills, reciprocating saws or any other power tools?

I HATE LAWYERS! There, I said it.

[GMorin]

Update #17

Any tools that are powered other than by biometric motion are not allowed.

[GMorin]

Update #17A

Lawyers are not allowed.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

I HATE LAWYERS! There, I said it.

sadly, I don't think it's the lawyers' fault that this is a problem. It's all of the money-happy Americans who use (and abuse, in my opinion) lawyers' best abilities for personal and financial gain. This wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have to worry about the PEOPLE who might bring about such a lawsuit.

That being said, this thread is a little off track. We have no positive confirmation that it is, in fact, legal pressure that is the cause of this new ruling. It's likely, but I wouldn't be so fast to jump to conclusions without any solid evidence

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Raul

Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.

116 is in the same boat. A couple years ago we designed our new pit set up (the "ark") specifically to set up our bench drill press, bandsaw, and belt sander so that both 116 and other teams could use it. And teams did use it. There have been a few teams over the years who have spent nearly as much time in our pit as in theirs. Now we are no longer allowed to bring them.
When I informed 116 of this at our meeting tonight, the response was shock and displeasure. I am NOT happy with this rule, not by a longshot.

[MrForbes]

I don't see what the big deal is...but then my favorite tools (even in my home shop) are tin snips, hacksaw, and files.....and a big vise...and I guess the big hammer makes the list too.

[Justin]

I think there are good points on both sides of this issue. I think it also varies widely from regional to regional in terms of pit logistics but obviously FIRST can't make the call on that basis. In some cases it is a safety issue in others it isn't. Frankly though I don't see the problem of brining a mobile machine shop if you are willing to be gracious about it and allow others to use it, within reason. Also I think there is a fairness here when you use a FIRST machine shop it is up to the person operating the machine, which as I understand it is not the team, so when that part comes out wrong then what??? I worry as well that so much of FIRST has become all about "cover your but" if you look at all the disclaimers, waivers, etc, etc, etc. you need to sign just to be a part of FIRST or volunteer at a regional it is really getting a little out of control, but I don't know how to fix that but it does take some of the fun out of it.

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

-Justin

[meaubry]

Great to hear officially the algorithem issue is being addressd.
And, on lighter note - looks like there will be less to pack.

Grinders have been out for a while now, the real news here is that the mini-drill presses and mini-band saws won't be allowed anymore.

Too bad, those 2 have always been life safers - without them the business should pick up exponentially for the FIRST approved machine shops - let's hope that they can keep up with demand. We really don't need another thing to be upset over.

[seanl]

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by seanl

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

Either can be safe if used properly, either can be dangerous if used improperly. Since you can't do anything about stupidity the only choice is to outlaw them for all. Why one and not the other, who knows?

[MrForbes]

Both drill presses and handheld power drills can be safe or unsafe, depending on how they are used. Perhaps they have another reason for the new rule?