Update #16

[sanddrag]

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loud

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by seanl

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

With a hand held, the drill (and specifically the bit) are the safety risk. With a dress press, typically the object being drilled becomes the safety risk (a piece of flying sheet metal can be lethal).

[Gabe]

Prehaps instead of banning these tools, FIRST should allow them at competition only in a specified area away from the pits and only under the supervision of a qualified safety judge. If anything, it would give the judges chance to observe other teams' build habits (both good and bad) and make safety judgements accordingly for specific teams.

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by Gabe

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

Those are just (good) suggestions. You are not going to fail inspection if you don't comply with the radio guidelines. Those things are so bulky it is sometimes hard to find space for them.

[ScoutingNerd175]

Originally Posted by Justin

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

This doesn't seem like a particularly useful situation. I'm sure that most teams try to keep all non-essential people out of the pits. But I know that when I have had people at competitions and I wanted to get them interested in FIRST, taking them to the pits is always what interests them the most.

And on a more basic level, I don't know how pit scouting would ever get done if we couldn't have people down there. Because our drivers and pit crew can only help with that if they have time, which isn't often at all.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Gabe

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

That exact radio information has been on the IFI forum and posted multiple times on chiefdelphi ever since teams started reporting radio problems (and partially mentioned in update 15).

Remember that this update only lists the mounting guidelines as a recommendation.

[Tri_Lam]

i forsee really long lines, and frustrated workers at FIRST machine shops

[mathking]

I think the cutting and drilling station idea has some merit as an alternative. As a side note, in my actuarial experience I discovered that statistically speaking, drill presses are among the most dangerous shop tools, particularly in an enclosed space. Sean Lavery is quite correct when he pointed out the flying metal danger.

As for hating the lawyers, or hating people trying to make a quick buck, we have to remember that another reason the system is the way it is now. There is a direct causal link to people and corporations who tried to evade responsibility when they actually did do something wrong or unsafe.

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I foresee a massive backup at the regional machine shops...

Now if you want to do something as simple as cut a piece of metal, it seems you will be making a trip to the machine shop. I suppose there are smaller, hand held version of these cutting tools though that are more mobile, but also could be potentially more dangerous than their stationary counterparts.

Maybe all of this could be avoided by teams signing another waiver of some sort?

[Tri_Lam]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

I foresee a massive backup at the regional machine shops...

Now if you want to do something as simple as cut a piece of metal, it seems you will be making a trip to the machine shop. I suppose there are smaller, hand held version of these cutting tools though that are more mobile, but also could be potentially more dangerous than their stationary counterparts.

Maybe all of this could be avoided by teams signing another waiver of some sort?

yeah someone get one it have home work cant do it -_-;

-good bye power saws hello hand saws

From my perspective, outlawing drill presses is not a good move. I have hurt myself on a hand drill more than I have on a drill press. I do in fact now have limited motion on my right wrist due to a hand drill.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loud

Brilliant!

I see no reason that a team should have to venture down to the machine shop just to use a band saw or a drill press to cut a single piece of material, and nor would I want to lose a "quick and easy" approach to cutting a simple piece of aluminum angle or Lexan if needed.

A special "drill press and band saw" area at each regional (maybe the size of two pits?) with one of each machine in there, and both being overseen by a judge/volunteer, would be a much better solution from FIRST rather than simply outright banning them.

If they really want to be safe, they can even 'enclose' the area with cloth sides to prevent any bits or chips from flying anywhere*, much like they do with mechanical voting booths, but with much more space around the tools.

I really don't want to see FIRST regress to the point of practically having to wrap everything in bubble wrap to pacify concerns over safety. If I know what I am doing, pay careful attention to what I am doing, and have respect for the tools that I use, then I shouldn't ever get hurt. No matter what injury ever occurs, a lack of one of these is always to blame, unless it's just some freak accident. Then again, in a freak accident a piece of space junk reentering the atmosphere could crash into my house tomorrow...

* Although in all the years I've used drill presses at school, robotics, and in my own basement, I have never seen chips fly more than two or three feet from a drill press. The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

your footnote needs to be full size, because this is likely the real problem....

[Kevin Sevcik]

Guys, you can't stump for both decreased regional fees AND increased safety hazards in the pits. Pick one. While there are many opinions being tossed around here about how hand drills and things are just as dangerous as drill presses and bandsaws, I submit that you probably don't know what you're talking about. Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.

As to why drill presses and bandsaws and not hand drills and dremels... Almost all cordless drills max out at less than 1/2 horsepower. Drill presses, meanwhile, start at 1/2 horsepower and move up pretty quickly from there. Bandsaws simlarly. These mini versions are still dangerous and not to be trifled with. Basically, the fact that jig saws and hand drills can be dangerous in some situations doesn't mean that these mini versions aren't more dangerous.

As to suddenly having no options for quickly cutting angle, tube, etc.... Well I've never been failed by a good old fashioned hacksaw and the only injuries they've given me are a few barked knuckles and the occasional scald from tiny hot pieces of screws.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.

I am not going to believe them .... because at this point in time we have absolutely no information to make us conclude that this restriction is in fact coming from the insurance companies. It could just as easily be coming from an exceptionally cautious person at FIRST that is trying to head off a perceived potential confrontation with an insurance company without considering the impact on the teams, or an over-zealous "safety expert" from one of the regional competitions that happened to get the ear of someone at FIRST. So before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

-dave