Update #16

[Paul Copioli]

This is the last straw for me. This is my last year in FIRST.

Yes. That is what I said. This is my last year in FIRST. It is clear to me that the individuals in FIRST that are making decisions clearly do not care about the teams. I am serious. I truly believe they do not care about the teams.

In St. Louis, Richard informed me that Bill Miller himself personally instructed Richard to contact me and put a halt to my illegal bandsaw. In true Richard fashion, he even stated a rule that prohibits teams from having private "machine shops". This is classic; we had our bandsaw in our trailer packed away. A team approached us and asked us if we had a bandsaw and we said yes. We unpacked the bandsaw for the team and cut their parts (all of about 5 minutes). This was around 8:30am. At 2:30pm we made an announcement to make it available to all teams. Our bandsaw was illegal because we didn't make it available to all teams at 8:30 when we pulled it out (for another team). Needless to say, no one was able to use our bandsaw.

Richard was doing his job and he did it with class and professionalism. I would not have been able to deliver the message in such a way.

In the last 4 years we have brought our mini mill, mini lathe, and bandsaw to every competition. We have machined parts for at least 100 teams over the past years at competitions. In St. Louis, our mini-lathe was busy on Thursday for 8 hours (at least). We only used our lathe for 1 of our parts.

The FIRST society is made up of good people. The lawmakers in FIRST (that is what they are) are not listening to the people. The people have no representation and that is the root cause of the problem.

This rule is ridiculous. This rule is an extreme reaction. This rule is typical of the new FIRST. I am out. I will find a new way to mentor students ....

-Paul

[Travis Hoffman]

I was going to post a cautionary warning to FIRST leadership regarding mentors reacting severely to illogical rulings such as this, and that all the struggles with questionable rulings all season are having a cumulative effect. With Paul's post, I no longer have to do that.

This is sad....

Yo Manchester - please wake up and pay attention. Paul's sentiment is not an isolated opinion.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by dlavery

I am not going to believe them .... because at this point in time we have absolutely no information to make us conclude that this restriction is in fact coming from the insurance companies. It could just as easily be coming from an exceptionally cautious person at FIRST that is trying to head off a perceived potential confrontation with an insurance company without considering the impact on the teams, or an over-zealous "safety expert" from one of the regional competitions that happened to get the ear of someone at FIRST. So before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

-dave

I'd sincerely hope that those over-zealous "safety experts" realize that there are many people who have learned, either through training or experience, to operate such devices safely.

So that leads me to trying to create a solution. We have these safety captain badges, right? Suppose that we put the Safety Advisors to work on Thursday, having them make sure that the safety captain for a particular team knows how to operate their drill press/bandsaw/can opener. The captain demonstrates knowledge of all the right practices, and that drill press/bandsaw/can opener gets a sticker from the Safety Advisor, just like our robots do. This sticker grants the team the ability to use the tool in the presence of the safety captain. It's another hoop to jump through, but I'd take it over the alternative.

To steal an Andy Baker spotlight:

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Don't tell the rookies to "not touch the robot", show them how to work safely.

[EOC]

I am deeply saddened by Paul's post. For the FIRST comunity to lose a person of his quality is tragic. I share his frustration with rulings unaccompanied by explanations. I would also like to urge Paul to reconsider.

[Cody Carey]

No to jump on the "FIRST SUCKS" bandwagon, but what have they been thinking? Rule after rule this year (and a little last year) seems to have been made solely for the purpose of making a rule. This is not to protect teams, as I have heard of no occasions when people were hurt due to an "unsanctioned personal machine-shop". This, and many others are only there as a restriction. It is the same thing with the spirit shown at the Championship Q&A session last year... FIRST seems to think that if they said something, no matter if problems are pointed out... that is the way it goes. Not because it is right, but because they said it. Teams don't even seem to be considered any more when it comes to the hard decisions.


Overall, I don't know what I think about FIRST anymore... I mean, I LOVE it, because without it, I wouldn't be who I am; I just think that maybe it is going the same directions as most thins, and becoming less and less concerned with its members, and more concerned with being a Corporation-mimicking non-profit organization.


WE have been in countless situations when the kindness of another team letting us use their machines has saved out robot. It will be a shame when that can't happen.

[Jack Jones]

I'm with Paul!

Who do they think they are? More importantly, who are we - and which is FIRST?

[TestEngr571]

I too am very frustrated by this ruling. It is very unfortunate that lawyers run our society these days! FIRST touts safety as a foundation for how we conduct ourselves at our own build sites and all official events, but unfortunately sometimes accidents do happen. The liability thing is really getting out of hand, didn't we all sign waivers? Anyhow the new rule states ..."FIRST does not allow non-FIRST approved mobile machine shops ..." OK, define "mobile machine shop" ... we all use portable (corded or cordless drills/saws, etc.) power tools. Further clarification of this new rule is necessary. Definition of "FIRST approved mobile machine shops" is not clear. I forsee the FIRST provided machine shops will be swamped.

How do we as graciously-professional teams setup these additional "FIRST approved" resources to help ourselves and our teammates within the constraints of this new rule?

[Teched3]

Many years ago, teams came ill-equipped to competitions, and as a result, many matches were played with "missing" robots (remember the placebo). I have noted that in recent years, rarely are there no-shows to matches, and I attribute this to better-built machines, along with pit facilities that allow for quick repairs. I can't imagine the onslaught on the machine shop to get even simple repairs or part modifications done. Buzz always shared their pit facilities and supplies with other teams, and would even stop repairs on their own machine to help others. What are the pits for? I guess we'll be using them to display a lot of non-competing robots.

[Andy Baker]

I thought we were supposed to focus on wearing safety glasses in the pits BECAUSE there was metal cutting happening. Our team (and others) have handed out safety glasses for years to help keep teams safe, BECAUSE we wanted to still be able to cut metal in the pits.

I heard Safety Judges start this trend last year... "no band saws, no sparks, no grinding in the pits".

We're smart enough to build a robot, program the code, and compete with a new game every year. I suppose that these "Safety Experts" don't think we are smart enough to remain safe as we cut metal.

They need to figure out a way to let us still do this. I believe that we are smart enough to keep ourselves safe while still using these tools. Maybe there does need to be some boundaries set, but not omitting this use of equipment all together. Obviously, the people who are driving this rule have not had the opportunity to be on a FIRST team.

Andy B.

[mtaman02]

I have to say over the past 5 years in being with FIRST they have done nothing but change the rules in such a way that it makes it hard to concentrate on the competition. The people at FIRST believe that what they are doing is right but in the long run it is hurting the teams tremendously. Heck they didn't even say exactly what was banned or not.

I seen many teams use 18v Circular Saws and Drills and the likes extremely safely & they always were wearing the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) To say this rule was created b/c of safety or you did not make it available to all teams participating is wrong. I know one team that lends out 99.5% of all their tools and if they didn't want to lend it out to a team b/c they were afraid of it being damaged they made sure they did the job for the team.

Maybe the reason why this rule was created was b/c the people using tools show no respect during opening / closing ceremonies and are using such tools. All you heard at the NJ Regional was power tools hard at work (Espicially during the National Anthems being sung) even when the Pit Announcer announced that such tools were not to be used during the ceremonies.

FIRST has a couple of non-common sense rules this just falls right in line with them b/c now teams are forced to "wait" in line and have it done "by a supposed professional".

I have a funny feeling the company I work for the MTA NYCTA has lent out the How To Make Stupid Rules Up as You Go Along book to FIRST which was written by books for idiots & dummies. You think the FIRST rules are questionable work for my company for a month and you will find at least 15 rules that eliminate one another to start and another thousand that don't make sense.

[Swampdude]

Last year at UCF we needed to do some grinding, and did it outside away from everything using an extension cord. We were shut down, and had to use a hand file for a mind and hand numbing hour - which a grinder would have completed in a minute.
Perhaps they could let us pick an area outside and run some extension cords / power strips etc. and let us do it out and away from the pits. BYOT but know that area is designated for "hazardous operations". Then at the enterance of that you could do your safety check on the people coming to do the work.
The backlash of this rule is detrimental, so please give us this one, and quickly cuz were packing those tools today!

BTW the grinding we needed to do required it to be done "on" the Bot, so dropping off a part wouldn't work. A machine shop drop off (in our case) would mean missing matches while the "Bot" is in line.

[KTorak]

I agree with Pail.

This is what ruling bodies typically do; they make rules/regulations without thinking about they actually affect those who must follow it. Sure, i'll admit that using certain tools in the pit can create a safety hazard. However, outlawing them completely is not the answer.

I could go on and on about a list of rules over the past 3-4 years that are completely meaningless, ridiculous and have no real benefit. Sure, they might be good for like one instance, for example, no shaded glasses in the pits because of the poor lighting, however, on the competition field, it's horrible due to the stage lighting, glare off all of the metal stuff, and the lexan sure doesn't help.

</rant>

[Swampdude]

Also to play Devils advocate here: In the years past, every time we used a dremel or grinder etc in the pit, everyone around us would look in great concern and distane. It's a natural reaction. The smoke and the noise can be disconcerting. I understand this rule. I've always wondered if they had a rule against it. Because everyone always seems so concerned when this is happening. I'm a little surprised by everyones reaction, if they've never experienced what I'm saying. However these are definitely necessary tools. So lets try to be a bit more understanding for both sides. As usual, I'm sure we can come to an agreement.

[Jim Schaddelee]

I agree with Paul ,I have been in First for ten years .I dont want this to be a bash First post and that that is not my intention. Now here the"But". I can't cant tell you the great memorys and joy ,me and my father and our team have
recieved over the year from helping other teams. Team 107 ,I like to think has a legacy of not just building robots,but service and Freindship with the teams that we compete with. Many of these friendships were made due to someone needed
help making something in the pit.
I understand safty has to be a concern ,but I truly dont believe the bandsaw is the biggest safty problem in the pits.I would argue that more accidents are from people try to hurry, the pits being to cramp and people not using proper tools.People are going to do what ever it takes to get thier robots running .I think First should leave the pits open late on the thurs night to allow"time" for team to get the robot repaired from shipping or just get working.First could set up safe area in the pits (not 20 min away)where the teams with tools and resouces would work together. I truly hope First reads this thead ,and hope Paul would reconsider. I have known Paul for years and
First need people with his pasion

jim schadelee
team 107

[Rob]

Hi Guys just a thought here...

The rule states that non FIRST approved machine shops are not allowed on site. It seems to me that some of the energy put into ranting could be put to use investigating how to get your mobile machine shops "FIRST approved" Has anyone who uses a mobile machine shop investigated this avenue?

Quitting when faced with adversity is not the answer. We have to figure out a solution within the constrainsts applied.

RAZ