Update #16

[Paul Copioli]

Rob,

It's not quitting when faced with adversity. How can I look my wife and two young childern in the face when I tell them how important what I am doing is to society when the organization we are a part of is lost? It is lost. If I leave FIRST because change isn't in motion, then I WILL find another program to inspire and mentor youth. Heck, I may even start my own.

-Paul

[Rob]

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

[Bharat Nain]

The safety advisor's at NJ were out and about all the time. There were multiple occasions where I had my safety glasses on while typing into the laptop and they would come up to me and make sure I had them on. There were all around the place making sure every inch of that arena is safe for everyone. However, it looks like doing that is not enough. They had to go to ridiculous extents. Pessimistic and faithless.

[haroony341]

while packing for the chesapeake regional last night, we decided not to pack our small miter saw, but we figured if we needed a quick cut we could go to other team's pits or borrow some of their tools since we dont have many as it is. now my question is, does a miter saw fit into this banned category is it safe for us to bring?

[Swampdude]

Originally Posted by Rob

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

I'm not going out and buying a trailer, generator etc just to run my grinder, and then man it all day in case someone else might want to grind something. I don't think a mobile shop approval is the answer either. These operations need to be done within the general competition area in order to be usefull. Not to mention If we have to take our bot out the front door into the parking lot, who knows what we're doing to it.
The answer needs to be something like reality. That means to write procedures TO actual practice and not to diverge from it (unless where necessary). We all built these bots using these tools, so all have them. We know what we need and how to do it. We all usually bring what we think we'll need, and borrow the rest. It's simple, just let us do it in a "safe-er" place and Bobs your uncle.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I told a few other FIRSTers today about this update today and every single one of them had the same reaction - "are you kidding me?"

If this is a liability issue, then create another waiver for teams to sign saying that FIRST can't be sued in the event that an injury occurs from these 'mobile machine shops.'

But odds are it's a safety issue. And I fail to see how this is the most rational, well thought out conclusion. Essentially taking away the tools that teams need in a robotics competition is not going to sit well with teams.

Scoring system issues, crazy scheduling, and now this bombshell - this has been quite the first week. What's next, no power tools allowed in the pits at all? Aside from basic fixes, would teams have all work done by the regional machine shops? I don't like the direction this may be going. And if we all don't like where this is going, then FIRST will see that. They're not blind, they do recognize us and they do take note in these forums. People complained to FIRST, there was a huge fuss about the scheduling and it's being dealt with. Everyone attending week two regionals, talk to someone about this, or contact FIRST directly to let them know how you feel about it.

[JohnBoucher]

How many of you have helped out other teams build themselves a robot on Thursday? It's amazing to watch.

No more one day wonders, I suppose.

I am all for safety, but this will put a damper on that teams helping teams. We may be misinterpreting this. Let's wait and see how it plays out this weekend.

[dtape]

i agree with the majority of this thread. My team normally brings a drill press to regionals and if other teams come to us asking to use it, we will let them. All of our students are required to be checked out on drill presses or band saws by our engineers befor using them each year. FIRST should do something similar. Have people checked out for using these items instead of outright banning them. Either that, or have a seperate area as has already been suggested.

[Brandon Holley]

It is a sad day in FIRST to hear a man of Paul's stature so affected by this rule. I think FIRST needs to evaluate their methods because many MANY people are becoming more and more upset with each passing day and each uncalled for rule.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Rob

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this.

No, this is simply another in a long string of stupid rules, and it looks like it's the one that broke the camel's back (at least for Paul, and probably others).

I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors. Seems like they're releasing rule after rule which do nothing but tick off these folks. Perhaps wiping out veteran mentors is just another piece of the grand master plan that they seem to have to "level the playing field" (despite many speeches from Dean advertising that "FIRST is not fair").

I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many.

[Ken Loyd]

[quote=Dave Flowerday;592557]

"I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors."

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits. The machine shops that teams bring to events and share with the other teams are another matter. If Team Crackpot can run their converted school bus/ machine shop in a safe manner, more power to them.

"I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many."

I would hope that Paul steps back, takes a deep breath, looks at pictures of kids from past teams, and keeps on doing great things for kids.

Ken

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ken Loyd

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits.

Banning band saws won't improve hack saw safety. Banning drill presses can easily cause more incidents involving hand drills. The way I see it, it's not the devices that need more regulation, it's the procedures for using them.

After, all, the most dangerous machine in a typical pit is a FRC robot.

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by dlavery

... before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.

This is what I love about engineers and why I have spent my career (so far) pursuing faith's perfection as an engineer. Engineers crave and demand facts, and won't reach a conclusion without them.

It is a safe bet that FIRST has gotten an earful of our concerns on this subject. I hope we will hear more from FIRST aimed at resolving our concerns, and soon.

[ALIBI]

I have to agree with Alan Anderson that the most dangerous mechanisms in the Pits are the FRC Robots. Just like the Match Pairings observed last weekend, FIRST will probably come up with something to fix this. FIRST must have some reason for coming out with new rule. Lets all take a deep breath and see what FIRST does now that they are seeing team reaction to the rule. We are all in this together, GP, is really all about respect. A small bandsaw, drill press, portable mill like the one used by Team 107, etc. are enhancements to the pits. Not problem creators.

I stumbled across a rough draft: TEAM UPDATE #17 -- No FRC Robots Permitted in the Pits.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

People don't look at the robot as a dangerous machine. Its amazing to see how many times you can count a team testing autonomous code with the whole team gathered 4 feet around the robot. Just food for thought.

I was on a small team in high school. We didn't bring any power tools to events more than a cordless drill and soldering iron. Somehow, we managed to get by for 9 years without missing a match due to a broken robot. In fact, we knew waiting in line for the machine shop would be a bad idea so we made it a point in our design process to use modular parts.

With that being said, it is apparent that this rule does not affect me very much. Yet, I still think it is bogus. I agree with Paul and company in saying that the latest efforts put forth by Manchester do not seem to agree with the best interest of teams or mentors. Perhaps we should take up what Dan said, and create some kind of group to obtain leverage over pathetic rules like this.

I think Paul has made this fact very clear: FIRST needs us more than we need it. With no mentors, there would be no mentoring of students. Isn't that the whole point of this program? Do we really want a whole bunch of untrained high schoolers running around with dangerous robots in a convention center full of people? I'm not saying get up and leave in an anarchial fashion, but there's no reason for us mentors to put hundreds of hours a month into a program that will not let us do the job we are supposed to do effectively.