Update #16

[Paul Copioli]

Rob,

It's not quitting when faced with adversity. How can I look my wife and two young childern in the face when I tell them how important what I am doing is to society when the organization we are a part of is lost? It is lost. If I leave FIRST because change isn't in motion, then I WILL find another program to inspire and mentor youth. Heck, I may even start my own.

-Paul

[Rob]

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

[Bharat Nain]

The safety advisor's at NJ were out and about all the time. There were multiple occasions where I had my safety glasses on while typing into the laptop and they would come up to me and make sure I had them on. There were all around the place making sure every inch of that arena is safe for everyone. However, it looks like doing that is not enough. They had to go to ridiculous extents. Pessimistic and faithless.

[haroony341]

while packing for the chesapeake regional last night, we decided not to pack our small miter saw, but we figured if we needed a quick cut we could go to other team's pits or borrow some of their tools since we dont have many as it is. now my question is, does a miter saw fit into this banned category is it safe for us to bring?

[Swampdude]

Originally Posted by Rob

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

I'm not going out and buying a trailer, generator etc just to run my grinder, and then man it all day in case someone else might want to grind something. I don't think a mobile shop approval is the answer either. These operations need to be done within the general competition area in order to be usefull. Not to mention If we have to take our bot out the front door into the parking lot, who knows what we're doing to it.
The answer needs to be something like reality. That means to write procedures TO actual practice and not to diverge from it (unless where necessary). We all built these bots using these tools, so all have them. We know what we need and how to do it. We all usually bring what we think we'll need, and borrow the rest. It's simple, just let us do it in a "safe-er" place and Bobs your uncle.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Rob

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this.

No, this is simply another in a long string of stupid rules, and it looks like it's the one that broke the camel's back (at least for Paul, and probably others).

I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors. Seems like they're releasing rule after rule which do nothing but tick off these folks. Perhaps wiping out veteran mentors is just another piece of the grand master plan that they seem to have to "level the playing field" (despite many speeches from Dean advertising that "FIRST is not fair").

I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I told a few other FIRSTers today about this update today and every single one of them had the same reaction - "are you kidding me?"

If this is a liability issue, then create another waiver for teams to sign saying that FIRST can't be sued in the event that an injury occurs from these 'mobile machine shops.'

But odds are it's a safety issue. And I fail to see how this is the most rational, well thought out conclusion. Essentially taking away the tools that teams need in a robotics competition is not going to sit well with teams.

Scoring system issues, crazy scheduling, and now this bombshell - this has been quite the first week. What's next, no power tools allowed in the pits at all? Aside from basic fixes, would teams have all work done by the regional machine shops? I don't like the direction this may be going. And if we all don't like where this is going, then FIRST will see that. They're not blind, they do recognize us and they do take note in these forums. People complained to FIRST, there was a huge fuss about the scheduling and it's being dealt with. Everyone attending week two regionals, talk to someone about this, or contact FIRST directly to let them know how you feel about it.

[Brandon Holley]

It is a sad day in FIRST to hear a man of Paul's stature so affected by this rule. I think FIRST needs to evaluate their methods because many MANY people are becoming more and more upset with each passing day and each uncalled for rule.

[JohnBoucher]

How many of you have helped out other teams build themselves a robot on Thursday? It's amazing to watch.

No more one day wonders, I suppose.

I am all for safety, but this will put a damper on that teams helping teams. We may be misinterpreting this. Let's wait and see how it plays out this weekend.

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

It is clear to me that the individuals in FIRST that are making decisions clearly do not care about the teams. I am serious. I truly believe they do not care about the teams.

...

The FIRST society is made up of good people. The lawmakers in FIRST (that is what they are) are not listening to the people. The people have no representation and that is the root cause of the problem.

This rule is ridiculous. This rule is an extreme reaction. This rule is typical of the new FIRST. I am out. I will find a new way to mentor students ....

-Paul

I saw this update and the first thing I thought was, "Uh oh, an anti-ThunderChicken rule." Then, I realized that was ridiculous. It's actually an anti-PITS rule. Isn't machining part of what defines the pits? The pits aren't just for polishing up your bot and changing batteries. They're for FIXING your robot. Teams aren't going to last long without being able to fabricate components at their pits.

The second thought I had was, "OMG, Paul's gonna flip." So I'm not really surprised at his post. He has every right to be upset, but quitting isn't the answer. I've been on robotics teams (nudge) and other organizations where I thought a certain rule or certain rulemakers were being completely unreasonable. But I stuck through it to the end, fighting tooth and nail, until I was proven right. I think that's one thing that I learned being a mentor, that things you truely believe in are worth fighting for, and not quitting on. I believe in the promise of FIRST, and I will try everything I can to keep that promise moving.

There are people that are going to get hurt. I personally saw a kid get his nose cut up pretty bad, just by lifting a robot at Atlanta last year. That's worse than most people will see from a bandsaw or a drill or a mill. A much better alternative is an injury waiver at competitions. I don't see how an injury waiver would add any more hassle to the teams than now.

Paul (and others) - just wait a week. Wait for the finals where there are 6 boxes on wheels bouncing around, because the teams weren't able to have access to a bandsaw or a drill. Wait for the Saturday morning when 500 people are crowded around one bandsaw in the machine shop, because the provided "machine shop facilities at every FRC regional event to meet your various needs" doesn't even come close. Wait for the chorus of teams to complain that they are unable to machine the most basic components. FIRST will turn around so fast it'll make your head spin.

Also look for a "robotics team union" to crop up, led by Woodie Flowers Award team mentors like Baker and Raul and Beatty and Patton, to attempt to put rationality back into the rules, and make sure that nasty surprises like this don't happen again. If FIRST doesn't listen to people that it recognizes as true role model FIRST Mentors, then it is a hypocrisy.

Incidentally, there have been times I've known of when the FIRST field needed to be fixed and individual team shops made the parts to fix the field (because the machine shop was full, BTW). Think about that.

[dtape]

i agree with the majority of this thread. My team normally brings a drill press to regionals and if other teams come to us asking to use it, we will let them. All of our students are required to be checked out on drill presses or band saws by our engineers befor using them each year. FIRST should do something similar. Have people checked out for using these items instead of outright banning them. Either that, or have a seperate area as has already been suggested.

[Ken Loyd]

[quote=Dave Flowerday;592557]

"I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors."

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits. The machine shops that teams bring to events and share with the other teams are another matter. If Team Crackpot can run their converted school bus/ machine shop in a safe manner, more power to them.

"I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many."

I would hope that Paul steps back, takes a deep breath, looks at pictures of kids from past teams, and keeps on doing great things for kids.

Ken

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ken Loyd

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits.

Banning band saws won't improve hack saw safety. Banning drill presses can easily cause more incidents involving hand drills. The way I see it, it's not the devices that need more regulation, it's the procedures for using them.

After, all, the most dangerous machine in a typical pit is a FRC robot.

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.

[Justin]

Does this update and rule perhaps speak to some larger issues? Someone in the thread mentioned that the people in charge at FIRST were not on a team and don't have those experiences this is true with some notable exceptions. But it seems like for a long time I and now it seems many others have wondered where is the responsiveness to teams from FIRST. It always bugs me that FIRST will issue updates like this WITHOUT consulting the teams. As Andy Baker said teams are smart, they build robots, they can figure this out out to. But FIRST doesn't ever go to the teams they just say "hey here is how we are doing this form now on." You would hope that FIRST could be more of a community and respect the community they have and be less like a product leaving teams with the only recourse they have in the business world, stop buying the product. I think though if you look back through the years there are countless examples of FIRST (and Dean/Woodie) ignoring the FIRST community and failing to tap the talent within. One example that sticks out in my mind is "The FIRST Song" who better to write a song about FIRST than those in FIRST what's more what a great opportunity for collaboration among teams (ala "We are the World"). On the flip side a good example of tapping team talent is the safety videos they do at kickoff.

My advice to FIRST is don't treat teams like your subjects, respect the community you've built, embrace that community, use the community to solve tough problems after all once upon a time that is what FIRST was about. Ignore this advice at the peril of the organization teams will stop buying a bad product.

Justin

P.s. Like others I include the disclaimer of I am not intentionally trying to pile on FIRST but perhaps this will be the tipping point or wakeup call. FIRST may be in charge but what are they without teams, and registration fees. I will continue to volunteer, and attend competitions because FIRST is an inextricable part of me. It's the teams who get it and it's the teams who can right things.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by dlavery

... before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.

This is what I love about engineers and why I have spent my career (so far) pursuing faith's perfection as an engineer. Engineers crave and demand facts, and won't reach a conclusion without them.

It is a safe bet that FIRST has gotten an earful of our concerns on this subject. I hope we will hear more from FIRST aimed at resolving our concerns, and soon.