Update #16

[Tuba4]

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted. The lack of such tools in the pits will surely cause even greater backlogs at the FIRST machine shops. And we have been saved many times by those on site shops. If my vote counted, I would vote for a separte drilling and cutting station. It makes the most sense. It would relieve pressure on the machine shops by directing minor work elsewhere.


Regarding the Pittsburgh machine shop:

Originally Posted by mathking

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

The shop is located in the basement of Benedum Hall, the U of Pittsburgh's Engineering building. It is three blocks or so from the competition site. You must walk up and down Cardiac Hill. And there is a reason they call it Cardiac Hill!!!

[Gabe Salas Jr.]

FIRST needs to remember their roots. FIRST is "to create a world where science and technolgoy are celebrated... where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes." (Dean Kamen)

It is even in their mission statement: "FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills."
_______________

Without the tools needed, it would be very difficult to maintain these interests and motiviate these individuals to become more (prior to joining FIRST). It is like expecting to win a battle by only giving your soldiers the parts of the gun without the tools for assembly; you might as well throw bullets.

We would not have stories like the 10 hour robot built during Nationals in 2004. Please tell me that this story is not one of the cornerstones of inspiration. I would love to hear your explanation.

Please come up with a resolution to this problem. We are engineers, not lawyers. I do not want Dan Swando's vision to come to fruition.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Tuba4

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted.

Team 1114 regularly brings in a band saw and a drill press to events. 90% of the time it's being used, it is not for our team. There are literally lineups to get into our pit at certain times. I'm not worried about how this will effect our team. I am worried about how it's going to effect the numerous teams who finish their robot on practice Thursday. This rule just stinks.

Also, shouldn't have this been made clear during the build season. I'm sure many teams shipped parts in their crate, hoping that's be able to use a drill press to work on them in the pits. Knowing this rule in advance, would have dramatically altered their plans.

As the years have gone on, it seems more and more veteran mentors are getting fed up with the actions of FIRST. This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

[Paul Copioli]

Everyone please read this:

My statement earlier in this thread is not really about the rule. The rule is a small stone in the jar. It's about the mounting evidence that FIRST, Inc. does not really care about teams or the members of the teams.

In addition to the public examples Karthik has given; I have a list of other issues that only I (and a few other FIRST mentors) know about. My list is longer than the public list and it points at a identifiable root cause to the problem.

For those of you that think my post was a knee jerk reaction; all I can tell you is that it was a well thought out post. I am calmer now than I ever have been in the last few years.

Maybe my revolt won't amount to anything. Maybe it will. Either way, I will be at peace with my decision. I do not want to leave FIRST, but it is something I feel I must do IF change does not happen.

This is my last public discussion on this topic ... until GLR.

-Paul

[wheeler]

I agree with many of the other posts about the machine shop issue. My team (#1002) has a mobile shop in our trailer and we tend to do more repairs for others than for ourselves. Last year when we offered to be an approved shop at a regional they informed me that we must carry our own liability insurance, must be manned by an adult, and no students were to work in the trailer. The last two parts were the easy part, it was the insurance that became the issue. I have not approached FIRST this year but over the fall we colonized as a Learning for Life Explorer post and with this recieved a liability and accident insurance policy through the BSA insurance the cost is minimal about $7 per student/adult and $20 for the group our total was around $700 for the year. For the student/adult it acts as a supplemental coverage and then it covers the organization. I will try to see if FIRST will accept this and if so then this is the way for the teams to go.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Karthik

This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

I have carefully read through all these posts and have come to the realization that these problems we are mentioning (not only this newest issue), are not hurting the veteran teams nearly as much as the rookie teams. Last weekend I heard Dean give a lengthy speech about his plan for the growth of FIRST. He proclaimed that within a decade we have grown to just over 1000 teams, and within the next decade we must grow to over 10,000 teams.

If FIRST wants 9,000 new teams (and to not loose any teams we have), they first need to figure out how to properly supply the teams they have. I will not rant on the banebots issue more than I have, but there are other issues which have affected all teams (but more so rookie teams). Such as shipping of batteries, here in Canada there is no supplier of the specific batteries we are required to use, FP motors there is 0 stock left and no FIRST supplier to purchase from, and banebots running out of supplies their gearbox's. If FIRST wants to see this growth they are going to need to do a lot of work on their infrastructure, which is having difficulties supporting 1300 teams at this point.

FIRST needs to start listening to the teams, we work hard to try and support rookie teams, these type of rules just limit how we can help teams and are not beneficial to the community. If FIRST wants to see this type of growth they need to start listening to the great community we have here.

[John Gutmann]

As many other people I agree and disagree with the rule. Because lets face, not everyone in FIRST is mature enough to use tools. I have seen kids in my team almost been severly injured from fooling around. I have seen a kid from my team sit at a table for 20 minutes and ust make a huge solderball. Yes, I agree, don't let them in the pits, but the stupid people are only half the problem. It isn't that if you know how to use a tool correctly you will never get hurt. What is your match is in 5 mins and you need to cut comething really quick and you forget to put on saftely goggles. Also FIRST is about learning and engineering. I know none of you design your robots to break intentionally, but maybe FIRST is showing us we need to tihnk about our designs more wisely.

But also, bad things do happen and almost everyone needs to make some kind of repair on there robot. Maybe some robot on the field was breaking to rules and ripped something off your robot? now you need a way to drill a new hole and tap it. I sure would let someone in the machine shop do that to my robot. Especially if it means I have no roboto for 3 hours.

Let's not over react here, think about how many teams get by with a hacksaw, cordless drill, and file. And well if FIRST bans cordless drills, I guess it is time to blow the dust off of those good ole' hand crank drills.

[Protronie]

Being an outsider looking in maybe I should keep my big mouth shut...
but then, that wouldn't be me.

Looking in at First and seeing whats happening I have to admit I'm having second thoughts about getting further into it. Especially from what Paul and others say there seem to be a lot of behind the scenes action going on.

Now correct me if I'm wrong or if you only think I'm wrong...
Sounds like FIRST Inc. is akin to our government... the powers that be spend all day coming up with ways of helping us and making us safer.
Thats why when you call them, they too busy to come to the phone. Leave a message and I'll assigned a staffer, to order an intern, to get a vol. to answer your message with a form letter and a request for a contribution.

Someone mentioned a union , while I personal hate unions I'm thinking having a elected by the users representative on the FIRST Inc governing rules making committee might be a good thing.

As for all the crying, and complaining about not having this or that....
alright go ahead and get it out of your system... done? Good.

A mark of a really good engineer or half good protronie is... making do with what you got. No band saw? Okay learn to use a hacksaw... get a few people to learn the proper way of using it so one persons arm isn't noodles by the end of the day.
Instead of crying about things not being fair and this is stupid...
Find a work around... find a way to do what you need with what the current powers that be might let you have.

Well good luck all...

[ChuckDickerson]

Unfortunately, I think we may be seeing the beginning of the end for FIRST. All of these problems are due to the overwhelming success of FIRST. It is just starting to get too big. As the number of teams continues to grow these sorts of issues become compounded. As much as we all want to see FIRST in every school in the World I think that ultimately FIRST is going to be a victim of its own success. The whole concept worked when there were hundreds of teams, not thousands.

For the adult team members (teachers, engineers, mentors, etc.):
Is it just me or are any of you at least mildly insulted by this new rule? We teach our students safe shop practices. While they are under our supervision they are “our” kids. We love them, teach them, and would do anything to protect them. We don’t want to see them injured anymore than FIRST does, but, we don’t want to see them injured because we know and love them. FIRST doesn’t know them like we do. FIRST just doesn’t want to see them injured for fear of a lawsuit. They are smart kids. They can design, build, and test a robot with very limited resources after all. Now FIRST tells us that they either don’t have enough faith in us to teach the students properly or the students are too dumb to get it? I find that somewhat insulting. Nobody is perfect. Accidents happen. But shouldn't WE know who can and can't operate particular power tools on our team better than anyone?

[JulieB]

If something on robot breaks we can't fix it. What I see it coming down to.

FIRST IS NOT THE SAME ANYMORE!!!!
Last year I saw the most change with the safety judges. Im ok with them wanting us to be safe but we can't even operate a drill press do they we are stupid.

[sanddrag]

Before I begin, let me say the point of this post is not to bash FIRST, it is to provide feedback, because I have a theory that they aren't aware of our views, because we have not voiced them, so here goes.

I bet it took a lot for Paul to come out an reveal his feelings toward this. I bet he thought about it a long while before doing so. What does this tell me? That there are several other mentors out there who have simple become "fed up" that we haven't begun to hear from yet.

You've heard from me before, and let me step up to the podeum again.

I agree with Paul here. Am I going to leave FIRST because of it? Most likely not. I've tried, but I can't find a better replacement for my time. Would I like to leave FIRST because of all the unexplained and mysteriously illogical rules? You bet. We live in a world of explanation, reason, and logic. FIRST has become a world in which these great assets of our population are diminishing before our eyes, under direction of FIRST HQ. What is engineering about? It is about solving the design challenge, and doing so safely. But it is also about being able to communicate and prove your points. Even more so, I once had an engineering professor give a question on a test, worth only 2/100 points if we got right, buy we were gauranteed to fail the test if we got it wrong. The question was "What is the most important consideration in engineering?" The answer was "meeting the customer requirements." This is important. You can design the fanciest pneumatic rivet gun, suspension bridge, spacecraft, or organization (pause), in the whole world, but if you aren't meeting the customer requirements, it is of no value. I've said this before and I'll say it again. We are the customers here. Without us customers, FIRST doesn't exist. Does the operation of FRC cost a heck of a lot more than every team pays? You bet. But, we shall not overlook the fact that $6000, $10,000, $11,000 is NOT pocket change for the majority of the teams involved. FIRST can say all they want that we get more than we pay for, and we can never argue against this, because it is true. But, they need to realize the loops we have to jump through to get enough money to even enter, and the big risk schools take by spending so much on these programs, the constant ciriticism they find themselves under forspending so much money on these programs and simple fact that we need to make sure we get every bit that we pay for.

I want to see a general attitude of "let's explain this better" coming from FIRST, because, right now it the atmosphere from them seems a bit like "we know you love our program, you couldn't leave it if you tried. we know you are here to stay, and we know you will adapt to whatever we give you"

On the topic, I believe the pit spaces are too small for many things to happen in the pits. This is not the fault of anyone. It is dictated by venue size. This year, many of the robots easily become much larger than the pit area. It is not uncommon to have up to 10 people even in the pit area at once. It is just plain crowded, which makes it inherently unsafe in some circumstances. BUT, don't ban the tools altogether. Let them be used away from the chaos in a calmer and more spacious enviromnment other than a 10x10 pit square. I see a lot of "solutions" coming from FIRST to problems that simply don't exist. They need better problem identification and analyisis.

For my personal story, had we not been able to use a drill press last year, team 696 most likely would not have won the innovation in control award.

For the past few years (and even longer really), safety has been one of the key points emphasized in FRC. To me, this ruling says to the students, "you aren't smart enough, you aren't careful enough, you aren't good enough to use powerful and/or sharp things, and plain and simple, we don't trust you not to screw up." I have seen FRC teams where their students are fully capable of running 20 horsepower 700+ inches per minute quarter of a million dollar CNC machines, unsupervised. I have seen teams who's mentors are barely capable of operating a hack saw. But this is exactly my point. It is up to each team to determine their own comfort zone. Putting a blanket rule isn't helping anyone here. And finally, with such a big emphasis on safety, and so many people watching, you can't get away with ANYTHING. This is a good! Should any dangerous condition even begin to arise, someone, student, mentor, or FIRST volunteer will shut it down. Don't ban the safe for fear of the dangerous.

Mentors take great pride in instructing their students on proper and safe tool usage. The mentors on each team. It is not FIRST's job to tell a team that their students (and even mentors) are not good enough to perform fabrication safely. This ruling is an insult to everyone who has gone the extra mile to ensure safety.

We are skilled people. Let us show you that.

And my final point. FIRST Robotics has cost hundreds of teams hundreds more dollars this year, than in any year previously, due to what are in my opinion, poor and illogical decisions on the part of FIRST. In the first week of regionals, FIRST cost teams their matches, and more or less gauranteed that certain teams would have no chance of winning. FIRST has taken away our money, they have taken away our fair and randomly paired matches, they have take away our real time clock, and this week, they take away our machinery, and for many teams, this "last straw" will take away their hopes and dreams. What will they take away next week?

FIRST makes a big deal out of how few people are on their payroll. But how many thousands of people actually work for them each and every day. Look in the mirror folks. You are the people that make FIRST great, every minute of every day. I have never before seen a company or organization run by so few, giving membership to so many, that does not listen to it's people.