Update #16

[Tytus Gerrish]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

After, all, the most dangerous machine in a typical pit is a FRC robot.

somone took the time to teach me how to use every shop tool they are not dangerous if in good repair and used properly. i have never dammaged myself with anything in the pit other than an FRC robot

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Tytus Gerrish

somone took the time to teach me how to use every shop tool they are not dangerous if in good repair and used properly. i have never dammaged myself with anything in the pit other than an FRC robot

Please note the phrase "in the pit." OUTSIDE the competition, however .

Tytus has a really good point here, which is that if someone as accident prone as him can operate machine shop tools without getting injured, so can everyone else. It's not the use of the tools that is dangerous, it's the lack of educated use. You can injure yourself on "FIRST approved" machinery just as easily as on non-approved machinery, just because you don't know how to use it properly. Education is the key.

[ALIBI]

I have to agree with Alan Anderson that the most dangerous mechanisms in the Pits are the FRC Robots. Just like the Match Pairings observed last weekend, FIRST will probably come up with something to fix this. FIRST must have some reason for coming out with new rule. Lets all take a deep breath and see what FIRST does now that they are seeing team reaction to the rule. We are all in this together, GP, is really all about respect. A small bandsaw, drill press, portable mill like the one used by Team 107, etc. are enhancements to the pits. Not problem creators.

I stumbled across a rough draft: TEAM UPDATE #17 -- No FRC Robots Permitted in the Pits.

[johnr]

to paul. don't know you,but from other posts sounds like your team and first needs you. think about it. you might want to set up off site-corner gas station- even if you had to drive a mile it might be faster then waiting in line.no on second thought maybe it is time to flood someones e-mail. don't know who to send it to.

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Rob,

It's not quitting when faced with adversity. How can I look my wife and two young childern in the face when I tell them how important what I am doing is to society when the organization we are a part of is lost? It is lost. If I leave FIRST because change isn't in motion, then I WILL find another program to inspire and mentor youth. Heck, I may even start my own.

-Paul

If/when that happens make sure you give me a call ...

[BiTurboS4]

Originally Posted by Jim E

The only obvious answer in for insurance purposes. SOME Americans live for lawsuits. FIRST is covering their bases since they bear ultimate responsibility as promoter. They would be the FIRST to be sued, along with the venue where it happened, along with the Team that loaned the tool, along with the Fast Food restuarant that served up the too hot coffee that spilled on the machinist who lost control of the grinder, that took off the finger, that hit some one else in the eye, that caused that person to bump the person operating the bandsaw:, which sliced into the arm......You get the point?

You do realize the entire story behind the coffee spill correct? That it wasn't just someone spilling coffee on themselves? The woman had extensive burns from her waste to her knees causing major damage to her body. It wasn't a fruitless lawsuit like you might think.

[Jessica Boucher]

All of you, please take your hands off of the keyboard and take a breath for just a moment. The best thing we can do for the situation is not get carried away and handle this calmly.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

People don't look at the robot as a dangerous machine. Its amazing to see how many times you can count a team testing autonomous code with the whole team gathered 4 feet around the robot. Just food for thought.

I was on a small team in high school. We didn't bring any power tools to events more than a cordless drill and soldering iron. Somehow, we managed to get by for 9 years without missing a match due to a broken robot. In fact, we knew waiting in line for the machine shop would be a bad idea so we made it a point in our design process to use modular parts.

With that being said, it is apparent that this rule does not affect me very much. Yet, I still think it is bogus. I agree with Paul and company in saying that the latest efforts put forth by Manchester do not seem to agree with the best interest of teams or mentors. Perhaps we should take up what Dan said, and create some kind of group to obtain leverage over pathetic rules like this.

I think Paul has made this fact very clear: FIRST needs us more than we need it. With no mentors, there would be no mentoring of students. Isn't that the whole point of this program? Do we really want a whole bunch of untrained high schoolers running around with dangerous robots in a convention center full of people? I'm not saying get up and leave in an anarchial fashion, but there's no reason for us mentors to put hundreds of hours a month into a program that will not let us do the job we are supposed to do effectively.

[Tuba4]

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted. The lack of such tools in the pits will surely cause even greater backlogs at the FIRST machine shops. And we have been saved many times by those on site shops. If my vote counted, I would vote for a separte drilling and cutting station. It makes the most sense. It would relieve pressure on the machine shops by directing minor work elsewhere.


Regarding the Pittsburgh machine shop:

Originally Posted by mathking

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

The shop is located in the basement of Benedum Hall, the U of Pittsburgh's Engineering building. It is three blocks or so from the competition site. You must walk up and down Cardiac Hill. And there is a reason they call it Cardiac Hill!!!

[Gabe Salas Jr.]

FIRST needs to remember their roots. FIRST is "to create a world where science and technolgoy are celebrated... where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes." (Dean Kamen)

It is even in their mission statement: "FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills."
_______________

Without the tools needed, it would be very difficult to maintain these interests and motiviate these individuals to become more (prior to joining FIRST). It is like expecting to win a battle by only giving your soldiers the parts of the gun without the tools for assembly; you might as well throw bullets.

We would not have stories like the 10 hour robot built during Nationals in 2004. Please tell me that this story is not one of the cornerstones of inspiration. I would love to hear your explanation.

Please come up with a resolution to this problem. We are engineers, not lawyers. I do not want Dan Swando's vision to come to fruition.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Tuba4

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted.

Team 1114 regularly brings in a band saw and a drill press to events. 90% of the time it's being used, it is not for our team. There are literally lineups to get into our pit at certain times. I'm not worried about how this will effect our team. I am worried about how it's going to effect the numerous teams who finish their robot on practice Thursday. This rule just stinks.

Also, shouldn't have this been made clear during the build season. I'm sure many teams shipped parts in their crate, hoping that's be able to use a drill press to work on them in the pits. Knowing this rule in advance, would have dramatically altered their plans.

As the years have gone on, it seems more and more veteran mentors are getting fed up with the actions of FIRST. This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

[Koko Ed]

I know it's a different subject but we are able to show FIRST the error of their ways and convince them to change.
We did it with the regional AVA. If enough people compalin to the right people maybe we can get them to change this as well. It's better than just gnashing out teeth and throwing up our hands.
We gotta fight for our rights guys. So let's use the resources at hand and do so. Otherwise FIRSt will become the cesspool that everone calims it's turning into now.

[Paul Copioli]

Everyone please read this:

My statement earlier in this thread is not really about the rule. The rule is a small stone in the jar. It's about the mounting evidence that FIRST, Inc. does not really care about teams or the members of the teams.

In addition to the public examples Karthik has given; I have a list of other issues that only I (and a few other FIRST mentors) know about. My list is longer than the public list and it points at a identifiable root cause to the problem.

For those of you that think my post was a knee jerk reaction; all I can tell you is that it was a well thought out post. I am calmer now than I ever have been in the last few years.

Maybe my revolt won't amount to anything. Maybe it will. Either way, I will be at peace with my decision. I do not want to leave FIRST, but it is something I feel I must do IF change does not happen.

This is my last public discussion on this topic ... until GLR.

-Paul

[wheeler]

I agree with many of the other posts about the machine shop issue. My team (#1002) has a mobile shop in our trailer and we tend to do more repairs for others than for ourselves. Last year when we offered to be an approved shop at a regional they informed me that we must carry our own liability insurance, must be manned by an adult, and no students were to work in the trailer. The last two parts were the easy part, it was the insurance that became the issue. I have not approached FIRST this year but over the fall we colonized as a Learning for Life Explorer post and with this recieved a liability and accident insurance policy through the BSA insurance the cost is minimal about $7 per student/adult and $20 for the group our total was around $700 for the year. For the student/adult it acts as a supplemental coverage and then it covers the organization. I will try to see if FIRST will accept this and if so then this is the way for the teams to go.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Karthik

This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

I have carefully read through all these posts and have come to the realization that these problems we are mentioning (not only this newest issue), are not hurting the veteran teams nearly as much as the rookie teams. Last weekend I heard Dean give a lengthy speech about his plan for the growth of FIRST. He proclaimed that within a decade we have grown to just over 1000 teams, and within the next decade we must grow to over 10,000 teams.

If FIRST wants 9,000 new teams (and to not loose any teams we have), they first need to figure out how to properly supply the teams they have. I will not rant on the banebots issue more than I have, but there are other issues which have affected all teams (but more so rookie teams). Such as shipping of batteries, here in Canada there is no supplier of the specific batteries we are required to use, FP motors there is 0 stock left and no FIRST supplier to purchase from, and banebots running out of supplies their gearbox's. If FIRST wants to see this growth they are going to need to do a lot of work on their infrastructure, which is having difficulties supporting 1300 teams at this point.

FIRST needs to start listening to the teams, we work hard to try and support rookie teams, these type of rules just limit how we can help teams and are not beneficial to the community. If FIRST wants to see this type of growth they need to start listening to the great community we have here.