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  #121   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-03-2007, 20:31
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Re: Update #16

Oops.

The year we get access to good tools and fancy equiptment, and make a robot that requires some accuracy, and then we loose the tools to repair it.

Had this happened the last few years, we woun't have even blinked. You can build a robot that is 99% buildable and repairable with a hacksaw and a hand drill. But you have to plan for it. Really do some engineering to make it happen.

We didn't plan on it for the first time in years.

Oops.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 20:35
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Re: Update #16

-groans inwardly- my expectations for this weekend have shifted radically.

Everyone has had vailid points, from both sides of the issue. Now, let me just say that I am in no way trying to say "FIRST is horrible" and I'm sure that we'll hear more about this update... but these are just my thoughts for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Carey View Post
...Rule after rule this year (and a little last year) seems to have been made solely for the purpose of making a rule. ... This, and many others are only there as a restriction. It is the same thing with the spirit shown at the Championship Q&A session last year... FIRST seems to think that if they said something, no matter if problems are pointed out... that is the way it goes. Not because it is right, but because they said it. Teams don't even seem to be considered any more when it comes to the hard decisions.

Overall, I don't know what I think about FIRST anymore... I mean, I LOVE it, because without it, I wouldn't be who I am; I just think that maybe it is going the same directions as most things, and becoming less and less concerned with its members, and more concerned with being a Corporation-mimicking non-profit organization.

WE have been in countless situations when the kindness of another team letting us use their machines has saved out robot. It will be a shame when that can't happen.
I must say that I sincerely sympathize and agree with you. This will be my fourth and final year in robotics as a team member, and boy have I noticed the changes over the years. It makes me sad. Things aren't the same, I can say that for a fact. I still love FIRST robotics because of the amazing impact its had on my life--I wouldnt be who I am today without it--but... ugh. Some things are just so frustrating. I'm so sad that this had to be the turning point for so many wonderful mentors, not just Paul, because I know he's not the only one.

I was there last year at the Championship Q&A; that was rediculous. I remember being so mad about the fact that rules were becoming so illogical, so circular and even seemingly pointless... and there was nothing we could do about it! No matter how many people talked and pointed out the contradictions, in the end, nothing changed. So we just had to make do, and we all survived, in spite of it all.

Clearly, it is true that FIRST teaches life lessons. Its just that today's lesson seems to be: Life is not fair. They just throw a new obstacle in our way, seemingly without regard to what those affected by it have to say, and just expect us to deal with it. And as much as we complain about it and try to offer solutions and this and that and everything else... until someone explains the reasoning behind this (there HAS to be some sort of reason they put up that new rule...) or until someone with some influence takes notice and helps us make a difference, it appears like we're just going to have to deal with it.

But from my experience, I have been in several frustrating situations where the higher-ups don't consuly those directly affected by their decrees beforehand. It is extremely frustrating. All they would have to do is contact a few well-known, trusted, experienced mentors/students/FIRSTers and run the idea by them before it becomes official. "hey we're considering this and this and that. what do you think about that?" I'm sure their feedback would be priceless. It's input from a credible source, giving a secondary opinion from a point of view that you may not have considered beforehand. Is it so hard to take two seconds to see what someone else has to say?
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Unread 07-03-2007, 20:52
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Re: Update #16

Last year at Champs Buzz saved us with their band saw so we decided to get a small vertical band saw. so we might be able to return the favor to another team. Well so much for that. such is life.
Not to mention the fact that we did not have a vertical band saw in the shop ether. Now we do!
See there is a good side to everything!
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Unread 07-03-2007, 21:31
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Re: Update #16

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.


Thought we might need some musical zen in this thread. My opinions have been said in this thread, I will not repeat them as I don't have the power nor position many others have in FIRST so the words will not have the same meeting, and I don't want it to lose their meaning.. I just wish the best will come out of this.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 22:00
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Dear FIRST,
I hope you are listening (reading) this thread.
I know you are working hard, harder then most people even realize. Some very well respected and knowlegeable people have answered with their thoughts in the previous pages. I suggest that when a Woodie Flowers award person like a Paul Copioli or Andy Baker gives their perspective, it is both heartfelt and indicative of their feelings towards inspiring students. Not just those that handle the tools and work on the robot but those others that may be rookies looking for help or veterans stuck on a problem or the freshmen in the stands crying over a broken robot. When a Jim or Ron Schadelee or a Raul speaks out, know that these are individuals who can turn a chunk of aluminum into a functioning part in the blink of an eye. (If I was able, I would nominate these folks for a WFA for their impact on students.) I know for myself it is hard to watch this discussion in light of the 11 + seasons I have participated in FIRST. In those competitions, I have watched these talented individuals and many others perform miracles on broken and under designed robots. They did it because of the deep personal belief that their work was changing the world one student at a time. I have seen hundreds of teams inspired to do better and walk away better human beings because one of these people smiled and asked if someone needed help. I have watched alliance partners give thanks that a well tooled and knowledgable team had taken their one broken partner under their wing and made a part better, fixed a defect, corrected an error. These people, these thousands, have heard your message and believed that it is truly better to be gracious professionals than to be competitors.

Perhaps you made a decision in haste or perhaps you didn't weigh all of the data equally. I am sorry but I have to agree with Raul, Paul, Andy, Jim, Stu and all of the others who have not yet spoken. The small tools in the pits should be allowed to stay. If there are issues unspoken, I am sure they can be addressed, please ask.

A humble mentor,
Al

P.S. I understand the grinder rule and agree.

Al, I agree with what you said more that I can express in this post.

This thread has turned into something that it should not have had to. Most of the most influential names that grace Chief Delphi and FIRST, and the new people who are working there way to be the next influential people, have all posted in this thread stating their distaste for some of the rules in this update. It is a sad day when people say that they will leave this program because of a rule that hasn't had time to be reviewed or properly discussed in the proper way. FIRST has done many more thousands of great and awesome things prior to this rule and I think that FIRST will continue to do that in some shape or form for a very long time.

This rule will effect MOE and many other teams. C-clamp your piece to a table and drill it with a portable drill, I know this isn't the same as a mounted drill press but its what be done until the rule is changed it can be done I have done it before in a pit when our drill press was temporally out of service and it worked fine. Injuries will happen no matter where you are or what you are doing being safe with everything you do will decrease those chances of having an incident. If you do not have the proper tools or training find someone who does, and if you are at a competition with MOE find one of us and we can help.
FIRST has taught me and I am sure many many many others how to adapt and overcome problems thrown at you, here is another problem we can do this together if we work together and help each other.

Paul, please don't let this be the straw to break your back I am sure that you are strong and can make it through this you have added so much to FIRST and will take even more away if you decide to leave.

I strongly believe that this rule will change in someway and the world will once again be normal.

I hope that adding my 2 cents with everyone else's has raised enough money for FIRST to look into this problem.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 22:04
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Re: Update #16

I'd rather use a hacksaw and drill than play the same opponent every match.

Two steps forwards, but one step backwards. Lets make sure to keep letting first know about the positives, as well as expressing our concerns.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 22:31
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by petek View Post
That said, we really don't know what FIRST's reasoning is behind banning non-FIRST machine shops. For all we know, it might be coming from some of the venues. I can only imagine what the reaction the manager of a college field house would be when he sees metal chips falling to the covering over his precious basketball court's hardwood. Or maybe some venues prohibit non-union personnel from using machine tools on premises. Possibly it is the same kind of interpretation of "level playing field" that led to the week one match generation algorithm. We can speculate forever, but until we know the reasoning behind the rule there is little use in flaming insurance companies, lawyers and safety professionals. Well, I guess they are always fair game, but that should be in Chit-Chat!
Well guess what FIRST? You are dealing with Engineers here and we are a special breed. Engineers don't want to know just that a rule has been written, but more importantly why, and who it will effect. The lame exscuse of "it's in the name of safety" may work for your average Joe, but when I can pull up an OSHA pamphlet that says something like "in a work environment glasses with tints are allowed", (just one example) then you need to come up with some better reasoning for some rulings.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 22:46
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Re: Update #16

Ya know, often I think that these knee jerk decisions and rulings are more of a result of the knee jerk reactions you find on these boards. If a rule is made for a season, those who tear apart and lawyer the rules will find it, and complain about it heavily. If a rule doesn't exsist, those who tear apart and lawyer the rules will complain about it heavily. FIRST has probably become so jumpy as a result of the masses reacting harshly over the slightest thing, that they are now overgoverning. Or maybe there is reason to their madness and they just aren't really good at explaining...the employees are human afterall.

I know there is more to the picture than is right in the open, on all sides of the matter. I will not dive into that matter, nor do I want to.

I'm just saying, have patience my friends. The future depends on it.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 23:03
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Re: Update #16

Here's thought number 2:

Maybe FIRST is against the policy of people building their robots at competition. Maybe they are opposed to the idea of shipping a box of parts. Maybe FIRST has a good, legitimate reason.

But you know what? It just doesn't matter. If this was the policy, we should have been told AT KICKOFF about such practices. Thats my take. CHanges of this magnitude cannot happen.
It's like a company, deisigning a product. The product is on schedule, and is set to be finished on time. Then, The customer calls and says that no computers should be used for the remainder of the project, but the deadline is still the same. The designer does not finish on time, and is subsequently given a lower pay rate than they should have for missing their deadline.

Not cool.
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Unread 07-03-2007, 23:23
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ross View Post
Here's thought number 2:

Maybe FIRST is against the policy of people building their robots at competition. Maybe they are opposed to the idea of shipping a box of parts. Maybe FIRST has a good, legitimate reason.

But you know what? It just doesn't matter. If this was the policy, we should have been told AT KICKOFF about such practices. Thats my take. CHanges of this magnitude cannot happen.
It's like a company, deisigning a product. The product is on schedule, and is set to be finished on time. Then, The customer calls and says that no computers should be used for the remainder of the project, but the deadline is still the same. The designer does not finish on time, and is subsequently given a lower pay rate than they should have for missing their deadline.

Not cool.
I agree, if First is going to make a rule change of this nature, then they should do it at the beginning of next season, so we know in advance what we can, and cannot do at competition
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Unread 07-03-2007, 23:56
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Hi Guys just a thought here...

The rule states that non FIRST approved machine shops are not allowed on site. It seems to me that some of the energy put into ranting could be put to use investigating how to get your mobile machine shops "FIRST approved" Has anyone who uses a mobile machine shop investigated this avenue?

Quitting when faced with adversity is not the answer. We have to figure out a solution within the constrainsts applied.

RAZ
i was just wandering around the Q and A and came upon this post:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...ghlight=mobile
question was posted at 330pm yesterday. and there is no answer.
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Unread 08-03-2007, 00:59
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
While I in no way advocate (and have been vocal in my dissatisfaction earlier in this thread) this rule, instead of bashing FIRST, why not work towards a solution? While FIRST typically lacks the transparency and accountability we want any organization to have, I doubt that they do not hear our reactions. This is quite obvious, by the reaction of FIRST and Autodesk to reinstate the regional AVA, and FIRST attempting (albeit too late for many teams) to correct the scheduling algorithm.
Perhaps we should start an ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction (say a petition?) similar to the one created after the announcement that there wasn't a regional AVA.
Regardless of the next course of action, getting steamed and angry will benefit nobody. And coming from me, that has to mean something.
One form of ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction is a protest:

Imagine that all teams agree to not move their robots in their first match in the qualification rounds at this week's regional. (For teams who cannot complete modifications or make repairs in their pits for lack of available tools, sitting still on the field might be their only play anyhow.) The reaction in the stands will be something that FIRST will certainly notice.

Of course, this is an extreme reaction, but others in this thread have made it clear that FIRST "powers-that-be" need a wake-up call. This sort of protest might get their attention...
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Unread 08-03-2007, 01:11
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Brinza View Post
One form of ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction is a protest:

Imagine that all teams agree to not move their robots in their first match in the qualification rounds at this week's regional. (For teams who cannot complete modifications or make repairs in their pits for lack of available tools, sitting still on the field might be their only play anyhow.) The reaction in the stands will be something that FIRST will certainly notice.

Of course, this is an extreme reaction, but others in this thread have made it clear that FIRST "powers-that-be" need a wake-up call. This sort of protest might get their attention...
While it would be powerful, it's completely unnecessary at this stage. FIRST has not had time to respond yet. They patrol CD, and I'm sure they're aware of the upset. If they respond, and still refuse to give us a clear and logical answer, then we can proceed to more forceful measures, such as an official petition. Frankly, I don't think it will get that far out of hand, and I don't think that ruining 7 regionals is a good way to go about this. The show must go on.

The real evidence will not be in how many robots sit there in protest, but in how many robots sit there (or go MIA) due to long lines at the machine shop.
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Unread 08-03-2007, 01:12
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Re: Update #16

*sighs* I just got finished reading/scanning this entire thread after an entire day of helping set up the field at the Los Angeles Regional. The discontent shown in this thread is very disheartening.

While at the set up, I asked our regional director why this rule was put into place. I wanted to know why something that was going to significantly affect teams was created. I wanted the answer, not speculation. I was given an answer that nobody here has spoken about, and I will try to remember to ask the RD tomorrow if I can post it.

However, during my discussion with him, I brought up this thread which already had 3 pages in it and all of our concerns. The responded by saying that he wants me to talk to Paul Gidonis (sp?) and ask him about this rule. The RD stated that I would get an answer of "I'll have to talk to so-and-so", but he also stated that it would get this into the back of Paul's mind. And, he felt it far more important for me to talk with Paul since I have been mentoring teams since 2001 and understand the consequences of such a rule.

*****

Paul said that he knows about things going on behind the scenes that most of us don't know. How many of those posting in this thread know what goes on behind the scenes of even the most basic things that are required for a regional, such as setting up the field or finding judges or securing a venue? Having been on the regional committee for two years now, I'm slowly learning what's required behind the scenes. And, I'm sure that the majority of you would be significantly shocked at everything that happens to ensure the regional works. Until you've been in a position of doing these tasks, try to refrain from indicting FIRST for their actions.

Someone posted that they figured that they would be given the usual response of "I'll have my intern call you" (or something like that) if he called about his complaints. FIRST is highly understaffed (according to a former RD) with a group of people dedicated to helping you. I believe I was told that there are only 38 people working full time at FIRST trying to run 35 regionals and the championship. (38/35 = 1.xxx) They have barely over one person that could be dedicated to a regional if they chose to do it that way. (Someone feel free to correct the number of people working full time at FIRST, if you know for sure.)

I seem to have lost where I was headed in this section. Or, perhaps my point is to make sure you know what goes on before you speak ill of it.

*****

That's enough for now,
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Unread 08-03-2007, 01:17
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Re: Update #16

I read most of the thread, and here is my take on it


Is it fair, No
I agree with everyone who says this is a bad thing, but to play devils advocate, what if........*start waynes world flashback noise*


Team 1337 shows up for NJ, week one, competes through out competition, in Quarterfinal 1 match 2 1337 take some damage to a component of their ramp, a peice of metal need to be cut to fix it, all is done via time out, and 1337's wins their next match and eventually the whole regional.

Team 1923 competed against 1337 that match saw they were broken, and then fixed didnt think anything of it, and ship their robot to Vegas for their second regional, 1923 competes throughout seeding round and in qt1m1 their ramp breaks but that venue doesn't allow the use of bandsaws to cut stuff..... 1923 would be pretty upset about this.




while i find it weird doing this after week one events as most people would most likely agree, i think that if this is the case, maybe to level the playing field at all events. then i could live with this, if this is just a case of CYA then well FIRST needs to rethink its a) time frame and b) its definition of common sense. i.e. one machine shop for 60 teams.....
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