Outside the box defense

[blakwyte]

*bump*

this is basically a list of the strategies that we were considering using in the semi-finals ... so weird!!

basically what we decided was:

knocking the ringers on the opposite side down to obstruct the opposing teams ramps i probably legal ... we'd seen other teams do it before without being called and the rules say "Inadvertent bulldozing of GAME PIECES while the ROBOT moves around the field is allowed." ... this strategy is essentially bulldozing since your object isn't to get ringers in a specific area but just to make a mess

placing a ringer on another bots ramp is technically illegal, but there are no penalties for it, since they assumed the only reason you would do this would be to cause an opposing robot to be in possession of multiple ringers "GAME PIECES may not be intentionally placed on opposing ROBOTS for the purpose of causing a violation of [rule <G09>]. Any such GAME PIECE placements will not be considered in POSSESSION of the affected ROBOT, and will be ignored."

deploying ramps on the field to block an avenue probably isn't a great idea. however, we had a unique situation where we had 2 bots with ramps, but could only fit one bot up either of them. we considered deploying ramps in front of the other alliances' ramp bot (which we had fondly nicknamed "the parking-lot bot" because of it's massive ramps) in order to prevent them from scoring with ramps. the other coaches convinced me that we would be penalized per-second for deploying on the field but i'm very sure that this isn't the case. suffering a 10 point penalty to prevent a 60 point bonus is probably the best possible defensive move to make. i want some feedback on this as it seems a little unsportsmanlike to use this strategy, although it would definitely be effective and (probably) legal.

we used the "bang the rack" strategy alot and it is extremely effective

[akshar]

Originally Posted by blakwyte

*bump*

deploying ramps on the field to block an avenue probably isn't a great idea. however, we had a unique situation where we had 2 bots with ramps, but could only fit one bot up either of them. we considered deploying ramps in front of the other alliances' ramp bot (which we had fondly nicknamed "the parking-lot bot" because of it's massive ramps) in order to prevent them from scoring with ramps. the other coaches convinced me that we would be penalized per-second for deploying on the field but i'm very sure that this isn't the case. suffering a 10 point penalty to prevent a 60 point bonus is probably the best possible defensive move to make. i want some feedback on this as it seems a little unsportsmanlike to use this strategy, although it would definitely be effective and (probably) legal.

we used the "bang the rack" strategy alot and it is extremely effective

see rule G35
10 points for every 5 seconds in opponents home zone. so a max of 30...most ramp bots will head back and deploy 10-20 before the START of end play soo the last ~30 seconds of the match

[Render]

Originally Posted by akshar

see rule G35
10 points for every 5 seconds in opponents home zone. so a max of 30...most ramp bots will head back and deploy 10-20 before the START of end play soo the last ~30 seconds of the match

I think they are talking about deploying the ramps outside of the opponents homezone, meaning they get the 10 point penalty for being larger than 72x72 outside of the homezone. I believe this penalty is not cumulative but i could be wrong.

[blakwyte]

Originally Posted by Render

I think they are talking about deploying the ramps outside of the opponents homezone, meaning they get the 10 point penalty for being larger than 72x72 outside of the homezone. I believe this penalty is not cumulative but i could be wrong.

yep i'm talking about outside the home zone, which is a one-time 10 pointer ... inside the home zone it's obviously a cumulative penalty. but if you look at some of the ramps that are out there, particularly the really large ones that take up most of the lateral room in the home zone and are "front end loaders", it would be ultra-easy to block from outside.

also, i'm unaware of whether you can be penalized the full 30 for being pushed into your opponents home zone. i don't believe you can but i'd like something definite.

[Rick-906]

while some of these strategys are "unconventional" i have a feeling we'll be seeing them before the end of the season...
ex: your ramps [that cannot be retracted once down] fall accidentaly on the opposing side of the rack, youre essentialy stuck there so why not make the best of it.

296's robot has no ramps [we do but theyre not installed] so this wouldnt apply to us but im sure it will or has happened to someone, somewhere.

anyone observed this?

[themagichat]

Originally Posted by geeknerd99
and we could lower and raise our ramp to slap the spider arm, making it harder to score.

Cool concept, but couldn't that also effect the placing of your alliance partners ringers. I guess it all depends on where you are shaking and how much it transfers through the rack. Personally I believe that strong offense is the best defense. Why just lower their ability to score by playing defense when you can take away thier opportunity to score by scoring on their side. It may seem out there, but if you have 3 good hangers on the field it really works great. Team 25 and 103 did an awesome job of it at the NJ regional.

[Render]

Originally Posted by blakwyte

yep i'm talking about outside the home zone, which is a one-time 10 pointer ... inside the home zone it's obviously a cumulative penalty. but if you look at some of the ramps that are out there, particularly the really large ones that take up most of the lateral room in the home zone and are "front end loaders", it would be ultra-easy to block from outside.

also, i'm unaware of whether you can be penalized the full 30 for being pushed into your opponents home zone. i don't believe you can but i'd like something definite.

The only thing is they may give you a Yellow Card for deliberately breaking the rules

edit: That is exactly why we made our ramps massive wings since it is much more difficult to block both sides. This way they are required to enter the homezone to block penalizing their team. Another point is that a team with one ramp and a large platform can be blocked for 30 penalty pts, but block 60 bonus points. With 2 ramps such as our design TWO robots must each block one side netting a minimum of 20 pts and a maximum of 60 in penalties against the other team.

[ALIBI]

RENDER, Looks like you did very well at VCU. Congrats. Did you get any oppotunities to use your ramps and if so what kind of defense if any did you see? The kids on the team I mentor totally agree with your front loading problem of being easy to block, and to be able to do so without getting penalty points. Having two side loaders requires two robots to block ramping.
We ended up taking side loaders one step further. Please take a look at this rendering:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/27536

What do you think? How would you defend the ramps?

[Dave McLaughlin]

Y waste 60 points deplying a ramp where you cant get on it?

[lenergyrlah]

Originally Posted by blakwyte

placing a ringer on another bots ramp is technically illegal, but there are no penalties for it, since they assumed the only reason you would do this would be to cause an opposing robot to be in possession of multiple ringers "GAME PIECES may not be intentionally placed on opposing ROBOTS for the purpose of causing a violation of [rule <G09>]. Any such GAME PIECE placements will not be considered in POSSESSION of the affected ROBOT, and will be ignored."

no it's not -- just if you "give" your opponent a ringer it doesn't count as possession.

& if your opponent pushes you into their home zone you don't get a penalty (as long as you try to escape).

[Rick-906]

any thoughts on trying to turn the rack around mid-game making it easier to score on the far side [which would then become the near side]?

[blakwyte]

Originally Posted by Rick-906

any thoughts on trying to turn the rack around mid-game making it easier to score on the far side [which would then become the near side]?

that rack is soo hard to move ... i'd never even thought of this strategy but i suppose it would be possible. i'd tend to think the chunk of time that it would take to actually make that metal monstrosity do a 180 would be too hefty to give you any benefit ...

141: i was actually looking at your ramps earlier with a mixture of awe and wonder ... i can't think of any way to defend against those ...

[EricH]

Originally Posted by blakwyte

also, i'm unaware of whether you can be penalized the full 30 for being pushed into your opponents home zone. i don't believe you can but i'd like something definite.

Nope.

<G24> Clearing HOME ZONE – the first audio signal, sounded five seconds before the start of the END GAME, serves as a warning for ROBOTS to exit from the opposing HOME ZONE. ROBOTS attempting to exit from the HOME ZONE after the audio signal may not be blocked or impeded in this attempt.

<G25> END GAME play – ROBOTS may not occupy the opponents HOME ZONE during the END GAME. Any ROBOT in an opponent’s HOME ZONE at the start of the END GAME will be assessed a 10-point penalty. A second 10-point penalty will be assessed if the ROBOT is still in the HOME ZONE 5 seconds after the start of the END GAME. Another 10-point penalty will be assessed if the ROBOT remains in the HOME ZONE 10 seconds after the start of the END GAME. However, a ROBOT that has been blocked or otherwise prevented from exiting the HOME ZONE (as described in Rule <G24>) will not be assessed any penalty.

And a team that could have been given 30 points in penalties was dragged in, disabled. (Disabled teams don't count.)

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Rick-906

any thoughts on trying to turn the rack around mid-game making it easier to score on the far side [which would then become the near side]?

The rack can only move a maximum of three feet laterally or rotationally.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

The rack can only move a maximum of three feet laterally or rotationally.

Rotationally, it's capable of a full 360 degrees. (or however much the power drop allows.) The chains to the anchor are on a collar that can rotate "freely" if it has to.