Is Defense key to this game?

[Scobrien]

Originally Posted by waialua359

If I was in the top seed, and there were only 1 or 2 effective, reliable ramp bots (60 point max capability), i would take them over the next best ringer scorer.

I think it really depends on how many the second best scorer can score. If the alliance can play good defense for them while they are scoring 7/8 tubes on the rack, those points alone would be worth more than the 60 pt. bonus.

With that, if one robot in an alliance had a single ramp, then at the end of the match two could do the ramp thing while the third was still scoring to the end.

In any case, when we (2177) were allied with 148 in the practice rounds, they had a more anti-ramp strategy. The only reason they didn't win in the finals was because they were getting blocked out, but if there were robots in their alliance keeping the opposition away, the number of ringers scored would beat any 60 pt bonus from a double ramp.

Still, I don't know how many teams can score 8+ with good defense...

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'd still be careful judging this game based on the week 1 and week 2 results. Art raises what is probably the most correct post so far. It's all about determining what will get you the best net score at that time. And often (if climbed properly) the bonus points for each alliance can and would negate each other, leaving the game to whoever won the rack.
Defense tends to become very lax in the last 25-30 seconds of any given game, as teams go back to deploy and climb on each other. That is where many of the best scorers quickly made up points lost to defense earlier. 25, 103, and 1302 are probably the best example of this. That alliance would typically get a few ringers up while being defended, but then they'd place 4 or 5 in the last quarter of the match as the other alliance attempted bonus points. End result? NJ Regional Champions. The same can be seen with many of my team's victories. We were unfortunate to be paired against one of the top 3 defensive teams at VCU (122) every match. They greatly hampered our scoring, but when they went back for bonus points, we'd quickly score a ringer or two, then get our own bonus points, resulting in 32-30, or 36-30 type victories.
Also, I saw several times that defensive bots got scored over at VCU.



By the opponent having 2 or 3 tube scoring machines. Especially when they can step up their offense after the ramp bot goes back to deploy and/or if they can get on their own ramp bot.

Our arm broke in attempting to score in the finals match in NJ which would have made the score from 132 to 16 in that respective row for our opponent. Had that been on, I think we would have won. In match #1, they scored all 8, we put on a spoiler and our teammate was supposed to put on a spoiler on the other side of the rack. Their arm broke also. Our 3rd partner had no arm the entire playoffs and just played defense.
For team 25 to come up to us and say it was pretty scary and that they almost lost says a lot. When spectators only look at the final score, it doesnt tell the whole story. Its what really happened until the end. This game is an exponential scoring game which can dramatically change in an instant with a spoiler. I cant confirm this, but 3 spoilers were put on the entire NJ regional. We were involved in ALL of them whether we did it or it was done to us, I think. We knew to focus on the bottom and lower rows since their alliance partners did only those rows and not the top. Now, I know the end result was that we lost, but all I'm saying is that it just depends and scores dont tell the whole story. Our strategy proved effective against the #2 and #3 seeded teams, who IMO, were awesome scorers!
My point: DEFENSE is important, STRATEGY is important, AWESOME scorers can be stopped, enough to win, and bonus point scoring is high with up to 60 points maximum. Just my opinion compared to last year's game. Team 25 is the exception that we saw, plain and simple.

[Dominicano0519]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Our arm broke in attempting to score in the finals match in NJ which would have made the score from 132 to 16 in that respective row for our opponent. Had that been on, I think we would have won. In match #1, they scored all 8, we put on a spoiler and our teammate was supposed to put on a spoiler on the other side of the rack. Their arm broke also. Our 3rd partner had no arm the entire playoffs and just played defense.
For team 25 to come up to us and say it was pretty scary and that they almost lost says a lot. When spectators only look at the final score, it doesnt tell the whole story. Its what really happened until the end. This game is an exponential scoring game which can dramatically change in an instant with a spoiler. I cant confirm this, but 3 spoilers were put on the entire NJ regional. We were involved in ALL of them whether we did it or it was done to us, I think. We knew to focus on the bottom and lower rows since their alliance partners did only those rows and not the top. Now, I know the end result was that we lost, but all I'm saying is that it just depends and scores dont tell the whole story. Our strategy proved effective against the #2 and #3 seeded teams, who IMO, were awesome scorers!
My point: DEFENSE is important, STRATEGY is important, AWESOME scorers can be stopped, enough to win, and bonus point scoring is high with up to 60 points maximum. Just my opinion compared to last year's game. Team 25 is the exception that we saw, plain and simple.

i wouldn't agree with that

look at Match one of the NJ Regional

we held them to 10 points

[waialua359]

again, a rare occurence.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Our arm broke in attempting to score in the finals match in NJ which would have made the score from 132 to 16 in that respective row for our opponent. Had that been on, I think we would have won. In match #1, they scored all 8, we put on a spoiler and our teammate was supposed to put on a spoiler on the other side of the rack. Their arm broke also. Our 3rd partner had no arm the entire playoffs and just played defense.
For team 25 to come up to us and say it was pretty scary and that they almost lost says a lot. When spectators only look at the final score, it doesnt tell the whole story. Its what really happened until the end. This game is an exponential scoring game which can dramatically change in an instant with a spoiler. I cant confirm this, but 3 spoilers were put on the entire NJ regional. We were involved in ALL of them whether we did it or it was done to us, I think. We knew to focus on the bottom and lower rows since their alliance partners did only those rows and not the top. Now, I know the end result was that we lost, but all I'm saying is that it just depends and scores dont tell the whole story. Our strategy proved effective against the #2 and #3 seeded teams, who IMO, were awesome scorers!
My point: DEFENSE is important, STRATEGY is important, AWESOME scorers can be stopped, enough to win, and bonus point scoring is high with up to 60 points maximum. Just my opinion compared to last year's game. Team 25 is the exception that we saw, plain and simple.

I have watched all of 25s elimination matches on TBA, and I was not only referring to the finals, but it did prove true again there. If you go back to score the bonus points, it leaves the spoiler you just placed open, and capable of being removed by the opposing alliance. If you stay to defend it, you're not getting the bonus points. It's a choice you have to make. Granted, 25 can't remove spoilers (to the best of my knowledge), but 103 probably could (and maybe 1302 as well).
25 is not the only exception, nor do they always rise above the defense. When a strong defensive presence was constantly against them, they could be limited to only a few ringers (look at match 1). Regardless, that is still a much better result than what you see with many other teams that have encountered defense, but it is not perfect. 148 is much of the same. They can score a few while being defended, but they can take it to another stratosphere when left alone. 148 also has the ability to play some nasty defense if needed.

[themagichat]

Originally Posted by waialua359
Our arm broke in attempting to score in the finals match in NJ which would have made the score from 132 to 16 in that respective row for our opponent. Had that been on, I think we would have won. In match #1, they scored all 8, we put on a spoiler and our teammate was supposed to put on a spoiler on the other side of the rack. Their arm broke also.

I recall team 103 coming off the ramp and playing some awesome defense to stop the hanging of that second spoiler. Besides that I just wanted to say that a ramp bot can be really important, but it all depends on how they play into the strategy. If you plan to get 2 robots up, you are going to have to leave the rack unprotected at some point and that leaves you vulnerable to spoilers and scoring by the opposing alliance. In the case of NJ finals, team 103 left the rack open to the spoiler so that they could get on the ramp. Some quick thinking got them back on the field to stop it. I think that this game is just a lot of strategy and quick thinking.

[Ian Curtis]

No team is invulnerable.

Buzz was scoring everywhere during pratice matches. Of course, everyone immediately targetted them, and held them to just 12 ringers on Friday. They would go on to score just under half this amount in a single elimination match on Saturday.

[pafwl]

I have been doing this for 10 years. Early on (years ago) it was the real good robots that won because they were able to dominate the game. I can tell you it was less fun than it is now.

But once Dean, Woodie and Dave thought about alliances the entire picture changed. The idea is to allow teams that may not have the greatest robot a chance. Some teams who built great robots complained that it was not right. Remember one thing FIRST does not care who wins. They want you aout there trying as hard as you can all the way to the end. So in that sense it works.

Once FIRST started to supply transmissions and frames then everyone could at least move. Then things got tougher for technically better robots. Now with 3 alliances it made it even more interesting but I believe better.

Ringer, Lifter or Both
We tried to put on a lifter. We worked on it from the beginning of the build. We had it almost working in the pits at PNWR. We got to the inspections station to get weighed and were 127 lbs. We then realized her we are pretty good at ringging, jettison the lifter. This was decided by the lifter guys BTW. Our tactics changed.

The Game
We played all the prilims trying to win. You are partnered with capable and less capable robots. We were trying all different ideas because there were so many good defensive robots.

The Finals
We were very lucky to get picked up by 997. Their final pick was 1087. Our scout data showed that 997 was a good lifter. In fact it was the same design we tried. 1087 had some good rounds so we were pretty happy. In the finals teams came after us but 977 ran around in their end preventing them for putting up rings. They left 1078 alone. 1087 then used their 2 days of experience to put up ring after ring. If teams went after 1087 we put up rings. Then in the last 45-30 seconds the endgame kicked in. Everyone left us alone to go get lifted. That let us put up rings.

Lifter Design
997 the lifter was designed with a low platform. Get on it and they pick you up. Since they use pneumatics you have the entire round to get on and they can lift after the buzzer. Huge advantage.


In my opinion it was the fact the we had 2 good ringers and a good pneumatic lifter that did it. None of us dominated in any of our rounds but together it was like hurding cats. Too much going on.

The point is try to bring something to the table. Be good at what you attempt to do. Develop a plan, learn new tactics. If something does not work like pushing robots, drop it and try something else.

In the end its all good. Many thanks to 997 and 1087.

[EricH]

Defense couldn't stop the number 2 alliance at L.A. They broke through with two ringer bots (one of which had ramps) and one blocker/defense bot. How to beat defense: have two robots that are about equal in scoring ability at the high end of the spectrum for the regional. One makes holes for the other to score in. Switch roles and do it again. Repeat as necessary.

[themagichat]

Defense couldn't stop the number 2 alliance at L.A. They broke through with two ringer bots (one of which had ramps) and one blocker/defense bot. How to beat defense: have two robots that are about equal in scoring ability at the high end of the spectrum for the regional. One makes holes for the other to score in. Switch roles and do it again. Repeat as necessary.

I agree. Spread out the offense to limit the defenses ability to shutdown the offense.

[dancingbrook]

Originally Posted by 65_Xero_Huskie

Defense is good, but scoring is what will win the game.

I'd beg to differ. Look here at this semi-final finish. That's red on the left with 60 bonus bots on top, and 8 ringers in a row on the rack, with none from blue. Score: 316 to 0. 2 great offense bots (175 & 501) and 1 strong defender (1824) providing 60 bonus points possible almost every time.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7283886@N02/417182098/

[themagichat]

I'd beg to differ. Look here at this semi-final finish. That's red on the left with 60 bonus bots on top, and 8 ringers in a row on the rack, with none from blue. Score: 316 to 0. 2 great offense bots (175 & 501) and 1 strong defender (1824) providing 60 bonus points possible almost every time.

Well the fact that the opposing alliance has no ringers up shows that they must not have been that much of a threat. I know it was a semi-final match, but the red alliance had to leave the rack open at some point to get on the ramp. Wouldn't that give the other alliance a chance to put on some ringers or some spoilers. I'm just questioning the abilities of the blue alliance.

[rachal]

My team designed to be a fast scorer, but unfortunately we were unable to get our arm working until the end of LA, so we kept it disabled the whole time. However, our speedy mecanum drive enabled us to put up a decent defense, and if the opposing alliance only had one scorer, we were usually able to prevent them from scoring during the whole match. In one match on Friday, our alliance was unable to either score or lift, but our human player managed to score one ringer. We were able to fight off the opposing alliance's scorer and kept it 2-0 until the last two seconds when they got around us and placed a ringer =P

At LA, most of the alliances I saw in the qualifying rounds could only score a few ringers, and successful lifting nearly guaranteed winning the match. However, there were some amazing offensive bots (254/330/4 got a row of 8 during finals) and in those matches, while lifting was still important, the ringers were much more so.

Most of the defenses I saw in qualifying matches were played by rampbots of average speed. This isn't very effective against great scorers; I saw 254/968 constantly get blocked and then zip around to the other side of the rack in a split second, and 330 was usually able to push their opponents into the rack and score over them. Some alliances were able to block 254 by ganging up on them, but when they were allied with 330 they were impossible to stop. Is it possible to stop an alliance with two strong offensive bots like that?

[Captain Thunder]

I do believe defense is the key to this game but at GLR they made a rule where if the do not have possession of a game piece then you can only get in their way and not push them. this makes it a lot harder to play defense. I think the rule there was made because of our team if not others but we played real aggressive defense. it was disappointing that they changed the rules on the last day of competition. maybe they made this rule to have more high scoring matches?

[PoJo]

it all depends on the alliance your facing in your current round....
in nj regional we won with a completely offensive strategy and in the nyc regional we won with strong defense and a decent ramp robot