Is this fair?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Wow, I don't see why you guys are giving Sagar (it was in the AKA?) such tough love. Its easy to say these things sitting behind a computer screen, but I would really like to think that if you were put in this situation, getting kicked from a match for a reason that was in no way your fault, your attitude would be a little bit different. I know I would feel a bit disheartened.

Yes, it isnt right to "blame" FIRST, and yes, ranking doesnt really matter. But, at the end of the day, no matter how they place in the event, this team is going to have a bad taste in their mouth. I have met plenty a team who refuses to go to a certain regional based on how they were treated in the past. Does this make them a poor sport or lacking "gracious professionalism"? No, I don't think so at all. We are all professionals, and part of that is having the ability to chose where to put our resources. I know I certainly wouldnt put down 5 grand to go to an event where I feel I got treated unfairly.

[Nawaid Ladak]

I am personally sorry for what happened to all of you and my teammates negitive response, beleive me, i would love to have a rematch, and the kids on the team would too, but i don't see that possable, unless the refs agree to it.

yes the kids should have known about the sticker being signed, but most of the kids on this team are rookies themselves. the few senior members of this team were either at the lunch-in or taking care of other business (stratgey for the next matches).

My team doesn't have the spirit of FIRST in them, and i hope to bring that back tomorrow, i mean if we were to win all three of our matches, we would move up into the mid to upper 20's, and anyways, the way the inspections were going, most teams can't come up with a alliance paring list with a half day's of true competition.

Im gonna talk to these kids tomorrow and explain to them the meaning of FIRST and why you guys are here (UCF arena)

[dtengineering]

This post may serve as a valuable reminder to all teams that having a tech inspection completed at the last possible moment is challenging and stressful not just for teams, but for inspectors, too. While you are certainly allowed, under the rules, to have your tech inspection completed at any moment prior to your first match, leaving it to the last minute may well increase the chances of a small but important step... such as the signing of the sticker... being missed.

Secondly, it is another valuable reminder of the importance of having robots ready to run when they go in the shipping crate... and having time to practice with them before that. I'm not saying that is something we're always able to do... but then again I don't expect to win regionals against teams that were ready and practicing a week before ship date, either.

Finally, the responses to this post are also a valuable reminder not to get too tied up about a win-loss record, or to be too eager to issue blame. FIRST is run by people, and mistakes will happen.... what is amazing is not that they do happen, but how rarely they happen.

I am sorry you missed your match, but hope you realize that your team may have been able to avoid the situation by showing up with a functioning robot and passing tech early in the day when the inspectors have more time to dot the I's and cross the T's and check out their work with each other.

Good luck on Saturday,

Jason

[Wayne Doenges]

I know this is kind of late to be saying, but it may help in later regionals.
One thing you could have done early is to have your bot weighed and sized. Than if you needed to get some programming done, you could have asked the inspector to come to your pit and finish the inspection while you were programming. I have done this in the last two years I have been inspecting. It saves time and results in a less stressful day for the teams and the inspectors.
As for being low in the standings. So what? Just show the other teams what you got and you might be surprised when your number is called during the finals. Our rookie year we were 42nd out of 50 teams. The second seeded team saw potential in our team and picked us. We took second at Western MI.

[Crazy Ivan]

When I tuned into the web-cast I saw you guys getting pulled off the field, what happened was a very uncommon occurrence. Every team has probably been in situations that they thought was unfair. Sometimes the situation is just out of your control and you have to move on from it, and not let it get to you. I can tell you from being on the short end of the stick in several of these situations that the best thing to do is not let it bother you and cause more problems for you.

In defense of the Refs: In situations like these, their hands are usually tied by regulations. These regulations are designed to make every single competition refereed in the same way. In most cases it keeps everything fair and eliminates misinterpretation of the rules and personal whims. Sometimes it leads to unfortunate situations. It works far more times than it fails, but we usually only hear about the failures.

[ahecht]

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. The fact that your inspection sticker wasn't signed could only mean one of two things:

a) Your inspector forgot to sign your sticker before giving it to you
b) Your team stole the sticker from the inspection table

Since he wouldn't let you play, basically the Ref was accusing your team of theft and of violating the spirit of the competition, which is a very serious charge. Something that could DQ a team from competition. The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by ahecht

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. The fact that your inspection sticker wasn't signed could only mean one of two things:

a) Your inspector forgot to sign your sticker before giving it to you
b) Your team stole the sticker from the inspection table

Since he wouldn't let you play, basically the Ref was accusing your team of theft and of violating the spirit of the competition, which is a very serious charge. Something that could DQ a team from competition. The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.

NOt quite accurate. We got a sticker the first time we went though inspection. We had some minor things to work on. Friday Morning, the inspector came around, checked us and signed the sticker.

[petek]

Originally Posted by ahecht

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. ...The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.

The referee has no choice in this matter. The rules are quite specific:

<R111>All ROBOTS must pass inspection for compliance with the rules herein before being allowed to compete in qualification matches.

(emphasis mine)

It is unfortunate that the inspector neglected to sign the sticker and that your team didn't make sure they completed this critical final step, but the ref's hands are tied - they have to follow the rules.

[Brandon Holley]

That is a very unfortunate situation, but things happen.

I wish you were around back in the days before the IFI guys would tell you if your robot was turned on. I cannot tell you how many matches you would see where only 3/4 of the robots were moving because someone forgot to turn on the robot.

Now, IFI or someone says, uhhh team XXX, you need to come turn on your robot. How many times have you seen teams forget to close the pneumatic valve and lost the use of your pneumatics for the match.

Granted, you had no control over this, but try not to let the accident ruin your whole regional.

[MikeDubreuil]

Is what happened fair? No, absolutely not.

The job of head referee is the most difficult job in all of FIRST. The head ref holds the most power over how good or bad a FIRST competition is perceived to be. The referee (judge) is given rules (laws) to enforce at a competition. The rules are made by FIRST (legislator) and the rules are meant to be applied by the referee. It is how the head referre applies rules which makes him a good or bad referee. If a referree aplies the rules by the letter than he will be perviced as a bad. If a referee applies the rules judiciously than he will be perceived as a good referee.

This team didn't cause their problem by being inspected late. A minor procedural error by an inspector did not cause this teams problem. It was a bad judgment by a referee that caused their frustration.

Sometimes I like to think FIRST invented gracious professionalism to deal with these situations

[Assassin Shadow]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

I am personally sorry for what happened to all of you and my teammates negitive response, beleive me, i would love to have a rematch, and the kids on the team would too, but i don't see that possable, unless the refs agree to it.

yes the kids should have known about the sticker being signed, but most of the kids on this team are rookies themselves. the few senior members of this team were either at the lunch-in or taking care of other business (stratgey for the next matches).

My team doesn't have the spirit of FIRST in them, and i hope to bring that back tomorrow, i mean if we were to win all three of our matches, we would move up into the mid to upper 20's, and anyways, the way the inspections were going, most teams can't come up with a alliance paring list with a half day's of true competition.

Im gonna talk to these kids tomorrow and explain to them the meaning of FIRST and why you guys are here (UCF arena)

I would like to apolagize. I didn't mean to jump on this subject as hard as I did. It just seems to me that no one should even bother with placing blame. Instead, we should just learn from our mistakes and move on. I hope the rest of the season goes well for you guys. And if you ever need help programming your bot', please feel free to ask.

[mtaman02]

Too my knowledge teams get a sticker with the name of that event and then a color coded sticker that goes on it the first one that means the robot passed 100%. I don't think they initial the sticker. Since I don't do Robot Inspections for that and many other reasons I can't really give you a correct answer, however what I can tell you is don't blame the volunteer and they're only human and do what they have been instructed to. If anything I would blame the Lead Robot Inspector since they did not properly train their crew. As far as the referee is concerned If I were them I would've let you played since all I would need is a confirmation which can be done over the headset (which means nobody had to find anybody thats why there are 2-way radios at the event All they had to do is chirp and ask). I wonder how many other teams got this treatment at other events. NJ was pretty quiet and I don't think we seen any Robot Inspection issues.

[Marcel]

Stuff like this is bound to happen every once in a while not everything is perfect not even FIRST, Gasp I know but it's true mistakes happen, if anything you might get a rematch or something. Just enjoy the game and dont lose hope, cheer, help other teams and just continue to play.

[Rick-906]

i'm really sorry to hear this happened! i think that maybe FIRST should have a look at their rules concerning ref's descisions being so final.

your team should not be punished for a mistake that was not their fault.
[im not saying it was anyones in particular, but it sure wasnt thiers]

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Its easy to say these things sitting behind a computer screen

Been there, had that happen. Got over it.

Fair? A Fair is a place you take your kids. FIRST isn't fair, well hello, neither is life.

I am truly sorry that you ended up sitting out a match due to human error, and that your alliance ended up paying a penalty as well, but sometimes, that's the way it goes. Perhaps it isn't the desired outcome, but how you recover and deal with it is the mark of a gracious professional.

Don